The State of Skinning 2006

My editorial on where skinning has been and is going

Wednesday, March 7, 2007 by Frogboy | Discussion: OS Customization

It's been awhile since I've done one of these but this is certainly a pivotal year in skinning.  The term "skinning" has really expanded in what it means. In the beginning, it simply meant changing the graphical elements of an application (such as Winamp) or of a character in a computer game (like Quake). 

Today, skinning is loosely used to describe customizing in general. From phones, to PDAs, to computer caess, skinning has become an all purpose term. Heck, I read on a car forum somoneone "skinning" their car interior.  But for our purposes, we're going to stick with customizing the user experience of personal computers (primarily PC and Macintosh).  This article will give a head's up on where I think, in my highly biased way, things stand and where I think they're going.

Before we begin, I should probably introduce myself since according to Google Analytics, 93% of February's unique visitors were first time visitors.  My name is Brad Wardell. I run a PC software company called Stardock which makes a set of utilities for Microsoft Windows that allows users and companies to change the way their computer looks and feels.

Much of the software we make is free. Some of it isn't. But as you can imagine, we are very into skinning and watch carefully its trends.

The Community: Who are we?

In the case of WinCustomize.com, we get over 2 million unique visitors monthly according to Google analytics. We've used other measurements in the past that gave higher results but we have a higher degree in confidence in Google's numbers. Past numbers have tended to double-count visitors so we would get counts of over 20 million visitors per month. By that measurement, we're now at over 40 million visitors. But we really are interested in unique visitors for our purposes.

When we first started using Google analytics this past July for measuring traffic, we were getting around 1.7 million visitors each month (even though July has 3 more days than February).  So traffic is definitely up (but it usually goes up in the Winter anyway so we won't be able to measure whether it's truly growing significantly until we've had a full year on Google analytics).

But what people in the community really want to know, how many people are really in our community? For instance in February, of that 2.1 million or so visitors, 1.6 million people came once and never returned. Maybe they found us through a search engine or link. The real question therefore are the number of people who came back over and over.  Say, more than 9 times in a given month. That number is 361,000 or so.

Okay, then how many different people visit WinCustomize say  on average 4 or more times each day? The true hard core? That number is around 63,000.

And it is that number that we have to be very conscious of.  When we enforce a site policy or create a new one, we try to keep the vocal regulars in mind, but we have to also try to think how the 63,000 people who visit the site several times each day but just don't post but are reading the comments and forums.

What's not commonly known is that the comments on a given skin are read a lot. The analytics data indicates that skins with a lot of comments will get a lot of repeat visitors who don't download the skin. Which implies strongly they're reading the comments.

Of the couple hundred people who regularly post in the forums and such, there's literally 62,000+ people lurking. This is probably something that's always been true on the Internet but just wasn't able to be measured.

The Community: Where is it going?

A long time ago when the first skinning sites (Customize.org and Skinz.org) came into being it was a relatively small group. I remember hanging out on those sites and you literally knew every skinner and sometimes every forum user. I'd chit chat with Doreen or craeonics or Shoggot or Mian or Toasty and any number of other people with interesting handles. And if a skin got a hundred downloads in a single day, it was a big deal. I remember thinking about a skin that got 500 downloads and saying "Wow, that's more people than were in my high school class!"

Today, thousands of skins, themes, icons, wallpapers, gadgets, widgets, etc. are made each week and submitted to various places. The most popular ones can see tens of thousands of downloads in a day or two.

The people making the skins are from all over the world. It has gotten even more diverse. In the GUI Championships, skinners from China dominated for instance. It's truly an international phenomenon.

Of course, this has some consequences. If a major chunk of the new skinners speak a non-English language as their first language, it changes the dynamics considerably in terms of written interaction of the community.

It's not that there's fewer English speaking people getting into skinning, it's just that it's gotten so much bigger. You've got the aforementioned Chinese skinners, you've got Japanese skinners (WindowBlinds, DesktopX, IconPackager, etc. are all sold in Japan at retail in Japanese -- and sell very well), as well as from Europe, South America, Australia and elsewhere.

The Tools of Skinning

Windows Vista will be a difficult transition. The more we get into it, the tougher it's going to be for us and we're paid to do it. For the freeware authors and hobbyist developers, you're going to see some die off as well as new programs being made. So let's talk about this:

Big fish eats medium fish eats small fish

Every once in awhile you'll see some users argue that they wish the OS vendor (Apple or Microsoft typically) "build skinning into the OS 'natively'". They think that if the OS vendor develops it and bundles it with the OS that it will, by magic, be better.

In reality, what happens is that it kills off the specialists. Once upon a time, there were two programs called DesktopX on the PC and Konfabulator on the Mac.  Apple included Dashboard with the Mac. Then Yahoo bought Konfabulator. And despite Yahoo's massive traffic and the re-christened Yahoo Widgets being cross-platform, the "widgets" over on Yahoo typically only get a couple thousand downloads.

Meanwhile, on Windows, Microsoft has included the Sidebar. Will Microsoft support the Sidebar any better than Apple has supported (or not) Dashboard? It's hard to say.  But the effect in both cases has been devastating to the world of gadgets and widgets.  Over at Yahoo, only 7 new widgets were released between February 21 and March 2. That's less than one per day. Not that the makers of DesktopX (Stardock) can crow. Only 15 widgets were made in that same period for it and 6 of them were weather widgets and they get even fewer downloads.

But then again, Konfabulator and DesktopX pretty much wiped out the mini-skinnable application universe. Before their were widgets, there were tons of little applications that were skinnable. Rainmeter and Rainlendar have survived along with a few others. But in general, the specialist skinnable applets died as widgets became popular

Side note: Rainmeter is actually thriving -- it got 11 new skins for it in the same period mentioned above and they don't exactly have Yahoo's clout (kudos to Rainy!).

Meanwhile, I'd tell you how well Microsoft's Gadgets are doing on MicrosoftGadgets.com but their gallery doesn't display things like dates with the submission but Apple's getting around 50 widgets a week of..various quality (but don't display the # of downloads).

I guess one thing I feel safe in saying that there's only one thing worse for people who like skinning than the OS vendor including it as part of the OS and that is the OS vendor also providing the site to get more content. Oye.

  • Dashboard Widgets (Apple) (about as sterile as it gets -- no ratings, comments, download numbers, or anything. Take your stuff and go)
  • Microsoft's Gadget Gallery (Microsoft Live) (I'm in hell, but at least the actual individual items let users comment and rate them once you manage to sift through the site)
  • Yahoo Widget Gallery (Yahoo) (The Konfabulator design lives on - still the best looking gallery with lots of easy to use features on the net. Arlo Rose is still the best web designer in the world IMO)
  • DesktopX Widget Gallery (Stardock) (not as pretty as Konfabulator's IMO but you make the call).

The lesson learned, don't hope the OS vendor includes it. Or you may end up one of those people still looking for Active Desktop content (and if they do include it, hope they don't try to be the place to get more stuff).

So where do things stand with the applications?

The GUI Changer Status

On the GUI Skinning site, Windows XP still has two basic ways to skin it. 

Option #1 remains that you can use a program that hacks Microsoft's built in skinning engine to allow users to use unsigned msstyles which has the advantage of generally having equal compatibility to what Windows XP's skin gets assuming the skin is well made but the disadvantage that you've had to hack your system files and hope Microsoft doesn't update the OS and break what you've done.

I'm personally still a grump about the uxtheme patchers because the most vocal advocates were so full of..crap about what they were doing using terms like "native" and trying to get people to ignore the fact that they were basically patching out digital signing protection and then use patched luna.msstyles files that were renamed. It was only one step above redistributing user.exe files back in the Windows 3.1 days IMO. But it works decently as long as you're not a casual user.  It was the ones trying to make money doing this that (again IMO) gave capitalism a bad name -- it's like paying someone to make a CD crack for your favorite game and having them imply they also made the game.

Option #2 is that you can get a program that has its own skinning engine to change the look of Windows. Pre-XP, there were several of these but Windows XP killed off all but one -- WindowBlinds which, at the risk of letting my bias shows, is absolutely superior to patching uxtheme at this point in terms of memory use, performance, and quality. It's main downside remains that poorly designed skins (and WindowBlinds skins will let the skinner hang themselves) can cause problems.

In my opinion, it really took until WindowBlinds 5 to put away the uxtheme patchers. There's still the zealots who aren't aware that you can use .msstyles with WindowBlinds by converting them via SkinStudio and hence say "I don't like WindowBlinds skins". But overall, I feel safe in saying that the GUI skinning wars on XP are pretty much settled.

On Windows Vista, things are a bit more in flux.  On Vista, if you are willing to patch several files, you can then resource hack the binary .msstyles file to change things since the Start button.  So far, the results are nothing like they were on XP. You're talking just replacing individual graphic items.

WindowBlinds on Vista is working but it will probably take awhile to nail down all the issues since Vista itself currently has issues. I suspect a lot of people are waiting for SP1 on Vista and for the video drivers to get updated. I'm going to write about my own Vista experiences soon. The short story is that some of my machines have Vista but my main "gotta get work absolutely done on" machines remain XP.  I suspect this will change in the coming weeks as issues in Vista and in third party software get resolved.

But that doesn't mean someone else won't come up with something. Remember, before Windows XP, there were several independent GUI skinning programs. Now that the uxtheme/msstyles thing on Vista really isn't practical, it might open the door for others to try to develop their own GUI skinning programs again. Who knows.

And if I haven't mentioned it before, UAC is incredibly annoying.

The Shells

Shells are programs that can replace the entire desktop interface. The shell Windows comes with is called "Explorer". There have traditionally been three major ones out there -- Litestep, Talisman, and Aston. I realize there are others out there but these are the three biggies as far as I know.

As far as I know, Aston doesn't support Windows Vista yet (at least according to their page). The last Talisman update was in October and doesn't officially support Windows Vista either according to their page. But that doesn't mean they won't work on Vista in the future. Vista is still new.

The last, Litestep, seems to have stopped development. I'm not sure what it's status is.  For awhile, replacing Explorer with a new shell was a pretty popular thing. There were shell replacements such as Hoverdesk, GeoShell, and numerous others that were very promising. Windows XP took out some of them as Explorer got "decent" enough and I have a feeling that Windows Vista may finish the job for all but the most niche uses (that new search in the Start menu is very nice in Vista)

But your mileage may vary. If someone has more up to date news and info, please feel free to comment.

Icon Changing

Changing icons is something that has gotten more popular and yet fewer and fewer programs actually do it.

I hope people will forgive me if I say that at this point, Stardock's IconPackager is the defacto standard in this. If there's another way to change all the icons on Windows Vista in one swoop I don't know of it other than IconPackager.

But the news on Vista isn't completely rosey:

Look carefully at this screenshot and weep. Because Windows Vista has a new type of folder called "Live Folders". It also adds a bunch of new folders types that are very prominent:

Check out closely this screenshot above. Windows Vista folders automatically will show what's in the folder. Here, let's zoom in on those folders:

Do you see what I'm getting at? ALL (as in 100%) of existing icons created in the past decade that attempt to change the folders will no longer work because Live Folder icons replace the traditional folder because these folders are generated dynamically.

In addition, there's tons of new icons (those greenish ones) that no icon package out there currently replaces.  In time, IconPackager will get better at mapping them out. But that won't change that there's simply some new ones (Saved Games, Searches, Contacts). 

And see the ones that look too small? Icons that don't support 256x256 end up looking small like you see the ones above that are small. Which means LOTS more work for icon artists (remember when 32x32 sized icons were enough?). To put things in perspective, 256x256 is about the full screen resolution of a Commodore 64. You're now talking about some serious artwork.

And even then, what about those live folders?  So icon packages will have to be updated to handle live folders. 

IconPackager 3.2 will include icon packages that support all the new stuff on Vista (thanks to Alexandrie and Treetog who have both joined Stardock full-time this year).

Above is an icon package Treetog recently released that supports Vista.

It'll be very interesting to see how this problem is resolved. Will skin authors update their icon packages? Or will we end up having to have some sort of system where there is some sort of icon packages..packages (where users can apply the base icon package and then a vista updated package created by someone else). Who knows what will happen there. But I can say without the live icon folder icons, an applied icon package doesn't seem the same to me.

And any serious icon changing utility has to support this stuff and I can say, it's non-trivial to do this kind of thing without resorting to some ugly hacking (did I mention that dynamic folders are dynamically generated)?.

Logons

Logons remain very popular. On Windows XP there are a number of different ways to change your logon screen. Stardock makes LogonStudio which we made because people were literally distributing logonui.exe's around (In America, that's called piracy). 

On Windows Vista, LogonStudio Vista is out and it's pretty straight forward so far. You can't really design your own logon yet like you can on XP. There just haven't been enough resources available to go and decipher Microsoft's cryptic "format" for their logon screens. And we also don't know the repercussions if we did (as in, we don't want to have a situation where people could hose their systems with a logon screen).

Dreams

For Windows Vista Ultimate users, obviously one big new addition that has made quite a splash has been animated wallpapers which we call .Dream files.  Microsoft includes a Windows Vista Ultimate Extra called Windows DreamScene. For Ultimate users, Stardock has developed DeskScapes which extends that Ultimate Extra to support .dreams which can do all kinds of amazing things as animated wallpaper.

I think as time goes on, animated wallpapers may turn out to be the "biggest new" thing to come to skinning in a long time. It's something that a lot of people can get into that has a very large impact. And the early results have been surprising - what many (myself included) skeptically thought might be tacky and distracting has been done in a way that is classy and interesting. I think Dreams are here to stay.

The Mainstreaming of skinning

A few years ago, pioneering skinners got together and started Pixtudio and Skinplant and started making premium skins. This led others to start making skins professionally for movie studios and major corporations.

In the past year, Stardock has brought in much of the talent from Pixtudio and SkinPlant to form Stardock Design.  In just a few months, two huge projects were won from Microsoft and Dell.

For Microsoft, the aforementioned work to create animated wallpapers for Windows DreamScene was launched and completed. 

And for Dell, the single largest skinning initiative in history. By teaming up with colleges, sports teams, and more, end users have started to be able to purchase themed desktops of their favorite teams.

You'll be hearing a lot more about this as the year progresses and this project really starts to ramp up.  By combining the talents of the top skinners into a single organization, skinning is about to come to "the masses" in a huge way.  Not bad for something that's just got started

The Skinning sites

The skinning community is no longer one tight monolithic group. It has long since splintered into all kinds of forms. 

Our friends at deviantART still support skinning but the site has gone on to focus on art in general and become immensely successful in that endeavor. 

Some of the classic sites of old have gone down. Others exist on seemingly endless life support.  But others, like Customize.org are on the verge of a revolution of new technology and improvements that I think will inspire other sites (including WinCustomize.com) to improve further.  SkinBase continues forward with a tightknit community (for users who find WinCustomize "too big" I highly recommend Skinbase, it's a friendly place with lots of good features and a good loyal community of regulars).

As for WinCustomize, this is the year that it and Stardock make good on repairing the failings of 2006 that were previously discussed. The new site is a good first step but there's much more work to be done.  This is, in many respects, the most exciting year in skinning ever and the community's growth and activity indicates that many people agree with that assessment.

General Thoughts

The same trends we've seen previously continue to evolve. Skinning, which started out as a niche in which people would ask "Why would you want to do that?" gets more mainstream.

At the same time, Windows Vista, even more than XP before it, is culling skinning applications by breaking them outright. Will programs that were on life support get one last surge? Or will they go the way of the eFX's and Chromas or Illumination that were broken by the OS and never updated again and faded.

Community interaction will largely come from the skinning sites in the community implementing increasingly better and more powerful tools to allow for people to collaborate together. You already see a bit of this now but I think you'll see more and more of this over time.

Not everything is rosey. I think 2007 will be a rough year. With Windows Vista, you're going to have a lot of time spent just getting things working at all on them. The time spent getting stuff working will be time not spent making things work better or adding new stuff.  And we don't know yet how hard Vista will be for getting stuff to work well. Still, I'm pretty excited about the horizons.

Overall, I haven't been this excited about skinning in a long time. Excited enough anyway to write this novella that I hope you've found interesting and useful!

Cheers!

First Previous Page 2 of 7 Next Last
Cyberworld
Reply #21 Thursday, March 8, 2007 4:13 PM
Some questions in general:

- Will SD continue to support all versions for WinXP too or after Vista kicks in will stop developing programs for XP? Meaning will WindowBlinds support both OS or just Vista?

- DesktopX will continue to exist or it will become somekind of Widget/Gadget producer for Vista sidebar?

- You believe Dreams will replace steady walls or is it just a fashion in rush-hour? Something impressive and good, but not for long?

Thank you.
Zoomba
Reply #22 Thursday, March 8, 2007 4:22 PM

Morpheus,

This is the last time I'll say it regarding your repeated complaints about the GUI Champs and how it was run.  You have demonstrated repeatedly that you are wholly clueless on the competition.  Just because who you felt should have won didn't, doesn't make it rigged.

Users voted first.  This gave us the top 10 finalists.  These were often what everyone felt were bad results.  The uproar over Most Original and Most Usable skins was caused by user voting.

Then judges picked from those based on their knowledge and experience with skinning, icons, graphics etc.

I disagreed personally with some results, but it doesn't make them invalid.

Get over it.

vStyler
Reply #23 Thursday, March 8, 2007 4:34 PM
the only reason I can think of is the skin itself is corrupt


No that cant be, This also has happened many times to me with a variety of skins other than my own and metioned to me by several skinners. (referring to the "unknown" skin entry)


As far as Morpheus' comments, I realize he is referring to me, I just want to say i do NOT instigate any of his opinions or comments. He is entitled to his own opinion however and I wont interfere with that.

To each his own.

I personally was happy to place where I did for my first WB and have LONG since forgotten all about the GUIC and moved on to trying to be a positive contributing member of WC. I like it here and plan to stick around for a long long time.

As far as this article, I still can't bring myself to finish reading the initial post but when I do I'm sure I will have something to add.

ZubaZ
Reply #24 Thursday, March 8, 2007 4:50 PM
I personally was happy to place where I did for my first WB and have LONG since forgotten all about the GUIC and moved on to trying to be a positive contributing member of WC. I like it here and plan to stick around for a long long time.


I am glad you are around.    
Frogboy
Reply #25 Thursday, March 8, 2007 6:57 PM

Some questions in general:

- Will SD continue to support all versions for WinXP too or after Vista kicks in will stop developing programs for XP? Meaning will WindowBlinds support both OS or just Vista?

- DesktopX will continue to exist or it will become somekind of Widget/Gadget producer for Vista sidebar?

- You believe Dreams will replace steady walls or is it just a fashion in rush-hour? Something impressive and good, but not for long?

Stardock will support XP for many years to come with new software even as we make new software for Vista.

DesktopX will continue on for both XP and Vista.

I think Dreams will expand the wallpaper userbase, not replace it. I.e. people like me didn't really care about wallpapers until they were animated.

Morpheous416
Reply #26 Thursday, March 8, 2007 7:20 PM
Morpheous, I feel pretty safe in saying that nothing we do will ever satisfy you. So you should give up hope now and save yourself pain.

Do you even have a company we should be aspiring to be more like?

If you really think the GUI Championships were somehow rigged or whatever, then there's really nothing to discuss


No Brad...that was the whole intent of the post. Was for you to start thinking outside the box, and to NOT follow other companies. Ever try to be original? I think you have..and you should continue to do so. I'll show credit were credit is due, but if you think that my money is going to go into your products to use them, and fail to see any promise of support when it comes to fixing the issues that have stood for the past two years...think again.

As for skins showing as unknown, the only reason I can think of is the skin itself is corrupt. Rebuild skin list & installing a new skin use the exact same code.


Not quite so Neil...but thank you for responding in kind. This happens with a lot of skins...and though it's possible to install by other means, I never have. I use WB to install the themes. I'm guessing roughly, 60-70% of all themes installed, require the Rebuild List function. Maybe there's something you could point out to those creating them that might help..something they're missing.

This is the last time I'll say it regarding your repeated complaints about the GUI Champs and how it was run. You have demonstrated repeatedly that you are wholly clueless on the competition. Just because who you felt should have won didn't, doesn't make it rigged.

Users voted first. This gave us the top 10 finalists. These were often what everyone felt were bad results. The uproar over Most Original and Most Usable skins was caused by user voting.

Then judges picked from those based on their knowledge and experience with skinning, icons, graphics etc.

I disagreed personally with some results, but it doesn't make them invalid.

Get over it.


Good god...is that all you can say? Must be some kind of sore spot...cuz it's easy to hit with you. Reason I brought it up...same if you read the post without jumping to conclusions and finished your coffee before hitting the reply button. The judges, and we all know who they were...wasn't just the problem. That's the issue. This news post was about the future of Stardock, how it views it's community...and where you guys are headed. NO company lives without it's customers. NO company can survive without their support...and anyone paying money to use Stardock software literally has "stock" in that company. I don't see too many ads running around on streets signs for WB, so I take it most of it is word of mouth right?
And, there's a typical structure on how issues are handled. I've tried getting the attention several times over about issues that need attention....nothing. I've tried pointing out pitfalls...I'm told to get over it, and I have more experience with selling products to high-end, billion dollar companies then you'll ever dream of posting about. Believe me, I have the experience. So toss it away if that's the best you can do.

I will give credit were credit is due. I have purchased both WB and StyleXP..used them both to their full potential, and remain a loyal user of WB because of it. But the system has bugs....lots of them....and they're not hidden, they're right smack in front of you. To me...that's just plain embarrassing.

And...as for speaking for anyone else, I don't. I speak for myself...any reference to any particular theme or author is only implied by your point of view. I'm not your typical consumer.. I expect to get what I paid for as implied when I purchased it...and I'm more than willing (unlike those that just can't stomach to voice their own opinions - yeah, let ya brothers die for Freedom of Speech then don't use it) to let you have both sides - when you do a good job, and when you've fallen on your face.
Bandit4edu
Reply #27 Thursday, March 8, 2007 8:25 PM
meanwhile...back to the discussion on the state of skinning...

Well written and informative, Brad...thanks for the effort placed into it and for taking the time to share it with us.
Frogboy
Reply #28 Thursday, March 8, 2007 8:40 PM

No Brad...that was the whole intent of the post. Was for you to start thinking outside the box, and to NOT follow other companies. Ever try to be original? I think you have..and you should continue to do so. I'll show credit were credit is due, but if you think that my money is going to go into your products to use them, and fail to see any promise of support when it comes to fixing the issues that have stood for the past two years...think again.

No, I'd expect you not to buy our products. That was my point.  Nothing is impossible for the person who doesn't have to do it.

You can't compare companies to some fictional "idealized" corporation.  It's easy to say "You need to do this and this and this" and act like it's easy to do it.  What is important to you may not be different to a different user.

No product or service is perfect. Ultimately, they can only be as good as they can be.  But I've read your posts for a long time and even if I'm often cranky sounding, I think you'd agree that I'm honest. And what I'm saying is that your expectations are higher than what can be delivered.

I don't want you to be misled into thinking that the things you don't like are going to be addressed because we don't necessarily agree they need to be addressed.  I could go down your entire list and say basically "Few, as in nobody but you in most cases, has ever had a problem like what you describe."

This almost deserves to be its own article but here:

The Windows customization market is reasonably large and growing. I think we can all agree on that.

Who are the players who have been in it and where are they now?

  • Hoverdesk - no updates in 4 years.
  • Aston Shell - no updates since last October
  • Talisman - no updates since last year
  • Style XP - a LONNNG time since their last update
  • and on and on.

Yet even though we actively update our software, communicate what our plans are, provide contests, communities, forums, galleries, etc. for users to interact with and support each other as well as have live Stardock people on the site (I mean, TGT Soft doesn't even have a forum and the only gallery they have is 100% non-free) -- yet even though we do all this, you make the argument that we're failing.

And my answer to that is that if that is the case, then you will never be satisfied. There is no way that any real company can reach your expectations.  To say otherwise would be to be dishonest and to mislead you.

I agree companies live and die based on their customers.  Object Desktop Renewals have been increasing as a % for quite awhile and have, in the past few months, reached unprecedented levels. Traffic to our sites continues to increase. Our relative ranking in Alexa increases. By all measurements, the customers seem pretty satisfied.

Our job is to not rest on our laurels but to keep coming up with cool stuff. Make our existing stuff work better and find new ways to work with the community to develop new things.

But someone who nitpicks CursorXP or implies the GUI Champs were basically fixed is not ever going to be satisfied because from our vantage point, CursorXP, GUI Champs, WindowBlinds, etc. are examples of successful things.

At the end of the day the question one must ask is - if not Stardock, then who? What company is providing better support for a programs that average between $8 and $20 apiece? I'd really like to know. Who should we aspire to be like?

 

Doreen
Reply #29 Thursday, March 8, 2007 9:18 PM
Making software work on diff operating systems that are running a mixed medley of other software apps that sometimes brew even more conflict and issues together must be no picnic in the park? In a perfect world everyone would update their software "simultaneously" but that's not the case (and what other software company can you actually get direct feedback "and" go toe to toe in the forum w/ the owner and employees of the software company?)

I notice they always update their software often and do the best they can w/ the load of users they now have. I actually spotted a "Boxed Version" of Windowblinds in a Fry's Electronics Store on the shelf recently which means they may not have the time they'd like to chit chat and fix every bug you may be having directly but are probably working on issues that are "reported to them" silently (though it may not feel like it) w/ growth comes less time and more headaches but having watched Brad over the years (and yessss I've had my own lil love/hate relationship w/ him in the past) he seems to care a great deal about his hobby and love for his software and I'm sure he's doing the best he can. I'm also sure there's more ppl using his software now then hours in a day to even tryyy to make everything work perfectly for everyone...
vStyler
Reply #30 Friday, March 9, 2007 12:59 AM
I think in a nutshell Brad your right about no company being perfect..but there are ( and theres no way to candycoat this) some things about SKS and WB that are in your face problems that have existed for a good while and no matter what is said by anyone seem to never get fixed.

Meanwwhile as you stride on into the future of skinning, we are still here dealing with the same old issues.

I wrote a post last week detailing the glaring holes that exist STILL in SKS\WB theme update\installation and not one person from Stardock offered a word of hope or any solutions or suggestions.

I would GLADLY sit down with the developers and assist in ANY way I can to see these age old problems behind us.

I do basically nothing.. everyday..all day..but work in SKS and WB and I can promise you Im not just complaining for the sake of it.

Im not Anti-Stardock in any shape or form, Im pro-Stardock.. I really, for the most part enjoy the software and want to continue making the best skins I can but I can tell you, somedays...   


here is the Original post...

WWW Link


I personally would appreciate some feedback with regards to these issues.
Draginol
Reply #31 Friday, March 9, 2007 1:06 AM

vStyler: Most common problem in software companies is developers come and go and that makes things tougher to keep updated.

Think of all the programs, even big name ones, that have died off. Just today I was trying to resize my partition but Partition Magic is dead.

SkinStudio's lead developer is no longer very active for instance so we're having to find other ways.  That is what happens in the real world at software companies. Even at Microsoft. Why did MS dump Front Page? WordPad? etc. Turnover.  People leave and it gets to be too expensive to bring in new people.

In Stardock's case, it has very low turn over and even when people do leave, they usually continue to work on things in their spare time while we transition. SkinStudio is one such example. It's an industry wide issue. It's not that companies don't care, it's that they can't.

vStyler
Reply #32 Friday, March 9, 2007 1:15 AM
I realize SKS is sort of in the doldrums right now, heck i can't raise Adam from the dead thesedays...however I think I have more problems with installing and updating WB's though.. and while I fully understand what you say Im sure some attempt at some point could be made by Neil to at least fix Install\apply issues..

If ANYthing should work properly its that.

ANything else.. i can work around, I cant work around IT not working.

Sorry if i'm being a pain in the ass but I think youll be surprised how much more pleased everyone would be, Skinners and Users alike if this process was seamless...and that can only bode well for you as WB is the backbone of your skinning system.
Frogboy
Reply #33 Friday, March 9, 2007 12:06 PM

VStyler - with regards to updating WindowBlinds.  For most people, it seems to work fine. I can't remember the last time I had a problem updating WindowBlinds or installing it.  I am not even sure what problem you are saying it has.

By contrast, to use a real world exmaple, consider how Apple handles iTunes. Every time it updates it, the user has to redownload the same 40+ megabyte program from the Internet.  And they're the "ease of use" people.

I think the WindowBlinds process is about as seamless as it can realistically get.

vStyler
Reply #34 Friday, March 9, 2007 12:36 PM
No... if you will look up to reply # 30 there is a link to a post where I explain in detail the issues I am having and without starting a revolt I can provide at least 3-4 other skinners that will corroborate the same problems.

Its nothing to do with installing Windowblinds (the program), sorry if there was a misconception and again I am NOT complaining just for the sake of it. i do this for a living and it would behoove me as well as every other skinner of WB and Stardock to try and remedy the issues.
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #35 Friday, March 9, 2007 12:38 PM
Frogboy,V is mostly referring to installing a skin update...I've always had probs with that.
We send and resend the same skins back and forth for testing constantly.You HAVE to delete the skin each time before applying the updated version.

You cant expect the average user to do this...no matter how many times you tell them in your skin description or comments...many just dont read that stuff.  
I.R. Brainiac
Reply #36 Friday, March 9, 2007 12:40 PM
Oops,,,Hi john...you were posting while I was writing...hehe.  
Morpheous416
Reply #37 Friday, March 9, 2007 1:50 PM
I agree with you Brad, you do get to the point regardless if you see someone taking a stab at your company. By default, you are going to be defensive. More often then not however, that defensive may lead to shut eyes. Eyes that need to be open to address a situation so you can move forward. You can get to posting information regarding your company that people will pick up and follow you with.

Now...I used the GUI thing as an attention grabber..and it worked. However, truthfully by me using the symbol, I was being a smartass. But I used both techniques to bring to light issues that need to be attended too.

I did post, the issues I was facing...and it went right over everybody's head. It didn't surprise me any that the responses were going to be against my opinions...rather than the facts I was presenting.

Brad, posting that you'd rather not have customers then to deal with the issues your customers face, is a black eye you DO NOT need. I had a feeling that I'd get here today to see your reply being just as it is. You flat out told everyone, using me as an example, that if I have issues....I just don't need to bother bringing them up because you'd rather see me use StyleXP then WB. At least then, you wouldn't have to face facts. Telling me right out in the open, that you'd rather me use a different product then admit there's an issue....NOT GOOD POLICY bud.

The issues DO NOT stand in the arena of installing/uninstalling (though the Vista edition did have it's issues of uninstalling) but rather USE of the program itself.

So, I'll copy and paste from an earlier post. I've been to the forums, I've been posting this right in the open....but yet you choose to ignore it or simply say "because it doesn't happen to me, it can't possibly be happening to you!" I've been working on computers since the seventh grade, yeah, same age as you Brad....and to this very day, I have and most likely never will be, able to say "I've seen it all".

From Reply #18

I'm still waiting to:

Install CursorXP packages without crashing CursorXP and having to resort to the ThemeManager to install.
Install WindowBlind packages without seeing "Unknown" and needing to use the Rebuild List function. I'm still dumbfounded as to why that feature even exists unless it's some sort of cover up for a failing that's not necessary.
Install and use icon packages without having to refresh the icon list thru IP every few days or so....because the program still loses the start menu icons and reverts back to the original XP icons. To fix the cross-user icon issue....where applying one package on one login, changes the icons on all the other logins.


Note...this has to do with USING the programs....read it carefully, I do not say I'm having problems installing (CursorXP for example) but installing packages that CRASH the program. (yada yada has caused a protection error fault in cursorxp.exe)

We seen an update to WindowBlinds once last year....but nothing for IP, or CXP.

Brad, you cannot grow as a company if you're going to be ignoring the issues. Just because you've made it to the point of sitting down with Bill Gates and laughing over a glass of wine....doesn't mean you're doing your company any justice. You, like anyone else has to go thru the trenches to make your company a success. Don't forget how you got there..and DO NOT forget the people that helped. Your company is a success ONLY because of it's customers. I'm not one to walk if I've felt I've just thrown my money away.

Just like a rotten tooth, ignore them....and they will go away.


edit: correction, CXP did have an early update in Feb 2006
Morpheous416
Reply #38 Friday, March 9, 2007 6:13 PM
Well....after looking up some information at the Better Business Bureau, to find that Stardock has an "unsatisfactory" rating...I will formally withdraw any request for support.

Nothing I can say, will ever top that.
AntAgna
Reply #39 Friday, March 9, 2007 6:14 PM

About LiteStep no longer in active development, this is not true.

Look at the activity there :
http://www.ls-universe.info/
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.windows.shells.litestep
http://tlundberg.com/LOSI/

And these nice themes there :
http://nbi-studio.com/download.php?list.2

LiteStep more powerful than ever and still as customizable.
Jafo
Reply #40 Friday, March 9, 2007 7:03 PM

Now...I used the GUI thing as an attention grabber..and it worked.

So, 'attention grabber' is to publicly accuse a website's admins/staff of corruption/contest-rigging?

Yes, it DOES get attention alright, but perhaps only that which it deserves.

What say we all abstain from libelous comments for the sake of social equanimity.

That would be nice....

Please login to comment and/or vote for this skin.

Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:

  • Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums and downloading skins.
  • Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
  • Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
  • It's simple, and FREE!



web-wc01