I would counter that the'general standard' used by Windows actually doesn't consistently work, and happens to be hidden more deeply. So, yeah, Ubuntu has hundred of libraries and thousand of smaller programs that are individually accessible *if* joe user goes to synaptic, aptitude, or apt-get rather than using the add-remove programs screen, but the fact that Ubuntu has gnome separated from nautilus rather than having everyting compiled into one big lumpy morass is only a weakness inasmuch as joe user likes the one big morass.

As it turns out - if Joe user likes one big morass, he doesn't *have* to go any deeper than add/remove programs to stay with that - {G}.

I mean, as it turns out - Ubuntu is just Vista with a few custom themes anyway . . . - {G}

Wrong, It lacks the 99% Windows Vista compatibility of the original Microsoft product.

The UAC is completely unacceptable to me. I won't use ANY version of windows that does that to me.

I'll buy a Mac first (shudder) or find a utility that shuts it down!!

You can turn it off...

No, really.

But I'd tend to agree.

It doesn't bother me THAT much really. It's a good idea, even though it's stupidly implemented.

Imho software shouldn't be allowed to request adminprivileges from the system, it should request it from the *user*. The solution is simple, just remove all prompting and keep the "run as administrator" option in the context menu. Anything needing admin privileges could just fail with a popup saying "Rerun as administrator".

Amen.

I expect that if Java ever gets a multi-application virtual machine off the ground, so you don't have to run an instance of Java for every application, then they probably would push to have it on Windows as standard. And Microsoft would say "no, there's J# support  on dotNet already, sod off", and then there would be a lawsuit. Fun.

There are also licensing concerns. Java should be fully open sourced be sometime next year, at which point Linux distributions at least will probably include it as standard.

Microsoft have an agreement with Sun not to put a JVM in Windows by default. Sun are silly.

However, Microsoft do include the .NET virtual machine (CLR) with Windows and I don't think it is multi-application. I don't know how it works, really.

J# support on .NET has been deprecated.

If Apple were to include a .NET runtime with Mac OS by default (they can use Novell's) and support Cocoa bindings, I wouldn't root for Java.

Yes. But by that point .NET will hopefully have won the race.

Hope to get Windows 7 64-bit next Christmas (if it's released by then.)  I hope my computer can handle 3 OS's installed on the same machine. (Windows 7, Vista, and XP)

Umm - you do realize the *reason* Microsoft is no longer allowed to simply install Java is because they deliberately and with malice aforethought (Hey, how often am I going to get to type 'malice aforethought'!) broke the version of Java Sun licensed to them. It was part of their campaign to destroy Netscape back in the day.

Gee, one abuse of monopoly powers to deliberately destroy a competitor, and it's bitch bitch bitch from the justice department - {G}.

Jonnan

Yes, I do realise that. Sun are still silly though because without Java on Windows, Java isn't everywhere.

Microsoft's version of Java was superior to Sun's. It was faster and had better native integration. That was a problem for Sun and the only way to stop Microsoft was to sue them over the incompatibilities and force Microsoft not to use the brand name "Java" for their virtual machine.

Cannot say that this was bad for Microsoft. They simply rebranded their VM. It is not the ancestor of the .NET CLR. And Microsoft and Novell have been taking marketshare from Sun ever since.

"Malice aforethought" is exactly what went into .NET. It's Sun's stupidity, not Microsoft's malice that made this happen.

(It took Sun a while to find incompatibilities. Microsoft's VM was practically a superset of Sun's JVM.)

"monopoly"
noun
A situation in which a company uses unfair tactics like very low prices and superior products against competing companies. Very low prices and the existence of competing companies are symptomatic of a monopoly.

http://citizenleauki.joeuser.com/article/81628/The_American_Liberal_Dictionary

They did the only possible think to prevent the killing of the Java platform. If they did not do this, Java  on Windows would have become something quite different from what it is on other systems. It would have meant the end of portability - one of the most important features of Java. Do you know .NET platform? It was an attempt of Microsoft to implement something like Java. But the result was not good - slow programs with compatibility problems (.NET versions are not compatible). 

And you still have the possibility to download JRE or SDK from Sun for free.

never got vista.... knew there were so many troubles with it

tough rlly,  why 64-bit only :/?     ive got plenty of old stuff (including games) that really need 32-bit to be playable   or was there a problem with those 2 working together :/?

Because of the new hardware, for example you don't really want to use a Quad-Core processor in 32-Bit because the kernel will not fully utilize the 3rd and 4th cores, the performance increase is so minimal it's pathetic. A lot of people are also using more than 4GB of memory now, even if you have exactly 4GB 32-Bit doesn't even see the full amount of memory as it is, why stick with with 32-Bit? There is eventually a point in time where you have to get rid of that old stuff, or stick with the OS you have. Microsoft simply can't continue making 32-Bit operating systems for people who refuse to get rid of old hardware which is becoming more and more obsolete with today AND tomorrows hardware.

Most of them are fixed.

. . . except that Macs and *nixes have elevation dialog boxes too. Windows is just borrowing it from the other OSes.

Despite what you've heard so far, 64 bit Vista is completely compatible with 32 bit applications. I am running 64 bit Vista on my system and I have not had a single game fail because it was 32 bit.

It's 32 bit drivers for hardware where you get problems, but these days hardware support is pretty good and most manufacturers are offering 64 bit drivers.

Astyanax typed at the same time I did . . .

Astyanax, you need to check the source of info. AFAIK, 32 bits does not affect how the third and fourth cores are used.

alright...  tough theres plenty of things that were here b4 64-bit was... so i doubt that's compatible...

and right now im talking about rlly old games like starcraft, red alert 1  etc.

@astyanax:

it's not that i refuse to get 64-bit  its that i'm unsure i'f i'll be able to continue using old software / hardware   becuase i dont think anyone here or anywhere for that matter can even argue about the fact that alot of "old" stuff  actually works better then most "new" things

the only good example i can come up with...

Transport Tycoon,  currently Openttd / TTDPatch & more

it's a great game,  still is  specially with improvements made,  tough the basis is still just the old Transport tycoon,

alot of "new" tycoons were made after that particular game... some trying to mimic it...   none ever catched as good as TT

 so im mostly just unsure if games & more  like discribed above still works on 64-bit

most people have 4 gb of memory?   seriously i just bought myself 2x 1024 and im happy about it.  i rlly dont know why i would need x2 that.... nor anyone else (unless your a Supreme commander player.. tough that probbly wont even help you...)

again not everyone has a quad-core  only using a dual core myself,  and it work fine,  you dont need a quad core unless your planning on playing supreme commander (and again i doubt that'll help reduce the lag)

so yes,  we'lll eventually have to get wrid of 32-bit systems etc.   but given that people still use 32-bit systems and that 64-bit sofware hasn't been here long enough to flush out the 32-bit  i doubt that it's time yet to throw away what i'v got here...........  not yet anyways

(i'll be forced soon anyways, can't compete with games being made 64-bit only... not that i care.. just that i dont have income to get all this latest tech...  atleast.. when i've finaly got myself ready for vista, i hear windows 7 = on its way... and probably more expensive then ever...)

But at least Java programs would have run on Windows. Now Sun's result is that Windows is still something completely different, but plain Java programs don't run on it.

Portability is only as good as the number of users it gets you. Anything else is an academic exercise.

I know the .NET platform very well. It feels snappier than Java and .NET versions don't have to be compatible as different versions can co-exist.

It's also reasonably cross-platform:

http://web.mac.com/ajbrehm/Resources/CocoaSharp.html

.NET allows application development for Windows, Linux/UNIX, and Mac OS X.

There is even this, so I hear, excellent gaming framework:

http://unity3d.com/

.NET-based games on the iPhone! Sounds interesting.

Java support in Mac OS X is excellent. But when I write a program I have to consider portability. And while Java is technically cross-platform, in practice making a Java program run on Windows is not much easier than developing for .NET 2.0 and making the .NET program run on Mac OS X.

Once .NET has working Cocoa bindings, the race is won. Until then it merely looks to me as if .NET is leading.

http://www.monobjc.net/

This allows calling Cocoa and QuickTime APIs from C# and VB.NET. Once I can write a program that at runtime decides whether to use Windows Forms or Cocoa (or GTK on Linux), .NET has definitely won against Java on the desktop.

Ideally Windows and Linux would get support for bundles so the the same .app can be launched on all three systems.

I have tried on http://www.freecol.org/ on my Mac but the Java binary still requires more than double-clicking to launch. (For example the JVM memory settings have to be changed for Mac OS. (I think this has to do with how Windows and Mac OS X provide virtual memory to applications.)

But for some reason they have managed to make them less annoying and more transparent to the user.