Does Copying Music = Stealing?
My $.02
Thursday, December 15, 2005 by Arquonzo | Discussion: Personal Computing
Talk radio commentator Dennis Prager states often that downloading music is the same as stealing, and I'll grant that on the surface it does seem like it. Particularly to the artists who generated the original soundwaves. But consider the following:
I have a neighbor. He just went to the store and bought a brand new widget. It's a really cool widget, and it's manufacturer has the appropriate patent.
My neighbor invites me over admire his new widget. I bring my tape measure, my calipers, my camera, my scale, and my laptop for taking notes.
I reverse engineer the widget, and build one for myself in my shop, with my own material. I like my cool new widget, especially since I didn't have to pay for it.
Now I get even more clever. I build a machine that has the ability to copy widgets. Whatever widget you have, you pop it in, and a copy is made. I never sell the copies I make (that would be a violation of the patent), but I do borrow alot of my friends widgets to make myself a personal copy.
Having perfected my widget copying machine, I get a patent, and begin to sell widget copiers. They're a hit, and the manufacturer of the original widgets sees a decline in sales, and blames me!
At what point in this fairy tale have I committed theft? If it is illegal to make copies for personal use, how exact does the copy have to be? In a world where nearly everything is available commercially, will it become illegal to make anything yourself if you got the idea from someone else?
Perhaps the real trouble is that the revenue generating paradigm for Musical Artists is antiquated. Maybe instead of trying to collect money from people listening to synthetic reproductions of their music, they should find another way to generate income from their work. More concerts, for example. Maybe the days of unbelievably wealthy music studios are over, and musicians are facing the inevitability of technological progress. Physical manufacturers may also one day face this scenario, like in the story above!
I have a neighbor. He just went to the store and bought a brand new widget. It's a really cool widget, and it's manufacturer has the appropriate patent.
My neighbor invites me over admire his new widget. I bring my tape measure, my calipers, my camera, my scale, and my laptop for taking notes.
I reverse engineer the widget, and build one for myself in my shop, with my own material. I like my cool new widget, especially since I didn't have to pay for it.
Now I get even more clever. I build a machine that has the ability to copy widgets. Whatever widget you have, you pop it in, and a copy is made. I never sell the copies I make (that would be a violation of the patent), but I do borrow alot of my friends widgets to make myself a personal copy.
Having perfected my widget copying machine, I get a patent, and begin to sell widget copiers. They're a hit, and the manufacturer of the original widgets sees a decline in sales, and blames me!
At what point in this fairy tale have I committed theft? If it is illegal to make copies for personal use, how exact does the copy have to be? In a world where nearly everything is available commercially, will it become illegal to make anything yourself if you got the idea from someone else?
Perhaps the real trouble is that the revenue generating paradigm for Musical Artists is antiquated. Maybe instead of trying to collect money from people listening to synthetic reproductions of their music, they should find another way to generate income from their work. More concerts, for example. Maybe the days of unbelievably wealthy music studios are over, and musicians are facing the inevitability of technological progress. Physical manufacturers may also one day face this scenario, like in the story above!
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kona0197
Reply #42 Saturday, December 17, 2005 3:18 PM
Reply #42 Saturday, December 17, 2005 3:18 PM
I love it. I really do. The whole WC "Holier Than Thou" attitute. Everytime we have a thread about stealing music everyone pops up and says how wrong it is. Yet I'll bet just about everyone here has either downloaded something they should not have or made one to many copies of a CD or copied a CD for a friend. Come on guys. He who live in glass houses shouldn't through stones. 
Dan Kaschel
Reply #44 Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:12 PM
Reply #44 Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:12 PM
Interesting connection. Made me think a bit.
You know, I had an idea the other day. Since we all know that music CD's and DVDs output video and audio in industry standardized formats (or else you could never use media), how hard could it possible be run a high quality line-out cord to your computer, capture it as wave, and turn it into a non-restricted MP3?
Or has somebody already done that...
DAn
You know, I had an idea the other day. Since we all know that music CD's and DVDs output video and audio in industry standardized formats (or else you could never use media), how hard could it possible be run a high quality line-out cord to your computer, capture it as wave, and turn it into a non-restricted MP3?
Or has somebody already done that...
DAn
Jafo
Reply #45 Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:32 PM
Reply #45 Saturday, December 17, 2005 6:32 PM
| Since we all know that music CD's and DVDs output video and audio in industry standardized formats (or else you could never use media), how hard could it possible be run a high quality line-out cord to your computer, capture it as wave, and turn it into a non-restricted MP3? |
It isn't....the issue is it's by necessity done in real-time...so it's not an economical [time-wise] way of 'stealing' music...
Ron Hall
Reply #46 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:49 PM
Reply #46 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:49 PM
Someone nailed it on the head earlier. Stealing of music, and software off the Internet is so much easier for people to do because you really don't feel like your in possession of real property.
An example of when a lot of people get their first credit card, it doesn't feel like they are spending real cash so they spend a lot more, and generally get them selves into a lot of trouble.
So I think thats one reason a lot more people download music off the Internet. Yes downloading a CD from the Internet and walking into Best Buy and five fingering the same CD are akin to the same thing, for most people they feel very different. “If I can't touch it, does it really exist?”
I guess it boils down to everyones own definition of real property. I know music copying is not a new thing, people did it with tape decks back in the day, I bet in the same %'s as people who download music now, it was just not as easy to track.
An example of when a lot of people get their first credit card, it doesn't feel like they are spending real cash so they spend a lot more, and generally get them selves into a lot of trouble.
So I think thats one reason a lot more people download music off the Internet. Yes downloading a CD from the Internet and walking into Best Buy and five fingering the same CD are akin to the same thing, for most people they feel very different. “If I can't touch it, does it really exist?”
I guess it boils down to everyones own definition of real property. I know music copying is not a new thing, people did it with tape decks back in the day, I bet in the same %'s as people who download music now, it was just not as easy to track.
DanTheMan5
Reply #47 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:34 PM
Reply #47 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:34 PM
well i guess that would make sense... if u took every aspect of the music, built it from the ground up, and put it together to amke the song..
o but youre not doing that, are u?
o but youre not doing that, are u?
CygnusXII
Reply #48 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:03 PM
Reply #48 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:03 PM
I pay for a satellite connection and use software to record my music, then I catalog the files and have my mp3s'. I wonder if I am covered under the Sony BetaMax case. I mean I think I am covered recording the music to VHS, so why wouldn't I be covered recording to a digital format? 
ParaTed2k
Reply #49 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:14 PM
Reply #49 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:14 PM
I've bought the same album on Vinyl, Cassette and CD... the vinyl and cassette I bought more than once each...
Tell me Mr. Music Industry Scum, HOW MANY TIMES MUST I PAY FOR FRAMPTON COMES ALIVE BEFORE I'M NO LONGER "COSTING" YOU MONEY BY DOWNLOADING IT ONCE?? ;~D
The big question is, how long has it been since Peter Frampton has seen a dime from sales of that album?
Tell me Mr. Music Industry Scum, HOW MANY TIMES MUST I PAY FOR FRAMPTON COMES ALIVE BEFORE I'M NO LONGER "COSTING" YOU MONEY BY DOWNLOADING IT ONCE?? ;~D
The big question is, how long has it been since Peter Frampton has seen a dime from sales of that album?
Jafo
Reply #50 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:28 PM
Reply #50 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:28 PM
| The big question is, how long has it been since Peter Frampton has seen a dime from sales of that album? |
The bigger question is how many 'dimes' does he get from the PIRACY of his music?
Oooooh now, let me see....geez that's a hard one...
Um....
SFA
Adam Stoutenburgh
Reply #51 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:35 PM
Reply #51 Tuesday, December 20, 2005 11:35 PM
I am a musician and I don't think that downloading music is stealing; nor is copying CD's. The record industry needs to realize that times are changing and get with them. Also, if they stopped suing 8 year old girls and producing the same overproduced sh*t music maybe people would buy it more often.
Arquonzo
Reply #52 Wednesday, December 21, 2005 12:46 AM
Reply #52 Wednesday, December 21, 2005 12:46 AM
Geeez, ya'll... I thought we were done with this thread. I haven't even checked it since Saturday!
Alpha Tellurian
Reply #53 Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:04 AM
Reply #53 Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:04 AM
All good points, but consider this. The band Metallica only became what they are due to bootleggers making copies of thier live shows, thrusting them into the mainstream. They came from deep underground, college radio shows at 2 am on Sat. night to being whatever it is they are today. From 100 person capacity bars to stadiums. Then when the Napster craze hits all of a sudden they are anti-bootlegging. Did they forget it was the same people/different technology that got them noticed in the first place? I fully understand the need and right to "get paid" and wouldn't want someone stealing what I invented. But, how long do I reserve the right to be "paid"? If I wrote a piece of music 15 years ago and you go purchase a used copy of the CD for 5 bucks, you have NOT contributed to the authors finances and in effect is stealing and the store you got it from is also to blame for selling an illegal copy. Do you really think a music creator gets any revenue from that sale? Or does the fact that it was already funneled through the comsumer buying machine, and purchased previously at full price make it legal? What about AAA bands playing local bars? If they get paid for playing that night and happen to perform a cover is that not copy infringement for profit? This topic is almost never ending, but will close by saying this, if i was a musician, and I made some million dollars last year, got laid+drunk and had a blast doing it, lived in a huge house, had tons of adoring fans and more cash than I knew what to do with, SHOULD I really be upset if a few, even a few hundred thousand people swap my tunes? Name one musician that is in financial straights and I'll never DL another MP3 again.... I'm waiting...poor mainstream musician...I thought so.
It's all about the benjamins
Corporate greed of a capatalist society
note: anyone can make music, it's not friggin' majik...
It's all about the benjamins
Corporate greed of a capatalist society
note: anyone can make music, it's not friggin' majik...
MountainDragon
Reply #54 Thursday, December 22, 2005 5:40 PM
I think what you meant to say was "anyone can't make specious statements".
If anyone can make music, then why aren't the downloaders out doing it for themselves? Why the "I'm entitled to it" mentality?
The music would not exist to download without the support of the society at large, and the supposed anti-capitalist downloaders are able to do it only because the majority pay. If you're so against the system as it is, create another one, don't just whine about it while you benefit from others input.
Oh, and it's "magic".
Reply #54 Thursday, December 22, 2005 5:40 PM
| note: anyone can make music, it's not friggin' majik... |
I think what you meant to say was "anyone can't make specious statements".
If anyone can make music, then why aren't the downloaders out doing it for themselves? Why the "I'm entitled to it" mentality?
The music would not exist to download without the support of the society at large, and the supposed anti-capitalist downloaders are able to do it only because the majority pay. If you're so against the system as it is, create another one, don't just whine about it while you benefit from others input.
Oh, and it's "magic".
Alpha Tellurian
Reply #55 Friday, December 23, 2005 4:04 PM
Because people, by nature, are lazy. Everyone has music inside of them, it's just easier to let someone else do it and then take it.
Reply #55 Friday, December 23, 2005 4:04 PM
| If anyone can make music, then why aren't the downloaders out doing it for themselves? Why the "I'm entitled to it" mentality? |
Because people, by nature, are lazy. Everyone has music inside of them, it's just easier to let someone else do it and then take it.
starkers
Reply #56 Friday, December 23, 2005 11:23 PM
Reply #56 Friday, December 23, 2005 11:23 PM
No, copying music is not stealing...no more than it is robbing a bank...burglarising your neighbours house for their valuables.
Oh yes, the tangability factor!! So when a cyber-thief empties your bank account on line...and transfers all those intangible cyber/not paper money funds to his/her own account...that's not stealing?
I don't agree with the music industry standards...their percentage and profit margins, etc, but stealing from them is the same thing as stealing money from an impoverished, down on his luck guy in the street. Theft is theft...and it's about time we started calling a spade a spade.
Furthermore, stealing music and reducing industry profits deprives artists of the little percentage they would have received from legit sales
Oh yes, the tangability factor!! So when a cyber-thief empties your bank account on line...and transfers all those intangible cyber/not paper money funds to his/her own account...that's not stealing?
I don't agree with the music industry standards...their percentage and profit margins, etc, but stealing from them is the same thing as stealing money from an impoverished, down on his luck guy in the street. Theft is theft...and it's about time we started calling a spade a spade.
Furthermore, stealing music and reducing industry profits deprives artists of the little percentage they would have received from legit sales
brassblaster
Reply #57 Saturday, December 24, 2005 2:07 AM
Reply #57 Saturday, December 24, 2005 2:07 AM
Sorry, but downloading someone elses work is stealing. I don't see any grey area at all.
Did you pay for it or has the artist given you a free copy?
Help me understand how walking into a music store and getting a five fingered discount on a cd I've always wanted is stealing, but downloading the same cd on-line is not?
Contrary to popular belief, there is such a thing as right or wrong.
At least, that's what my mamma taught me.
IMHO
Did you pay for it or has the artist given you a free copy?
Help me understand how walking into a music store and getting a five fingered discount on a cd I've always wanted is stealing, but downloading the same cd on-line is not?
Contrary to popular belief, there is such a thing as right or wrong.
At least, that's what my mamma taught me.
IMHO
Vailene
Reply #58 Saturday, December 24, 2005 4:35 AM
Reply #58 Saturday, December 24, 2005 4:35 AM
In Technicality,
Anything here http://www.copyright.gov that shows as against copyright law is. This is the "stone word" regarding this entire situation.
Copying Music for someone else (Even if no profit was made).. Is ILLEGAL.
Copying Music for your OWN PERSONAL BACKUP... Is NOT ILLEGAL.
Inviting Someone over your house to listen to a CD you purchased.... Is NOT ILLEGAL.
This is the technicality..
However, everyone (regardless of who admits) is illegal of making a copy of a CD or accepting one at one time or another. EVERYONE. This includes Musical Artists, Attourneys, Judges and just every day people such as myself.
Hence, we're all currently or have in the past broken a copyright law. So how could anyone (including Judges) pass judgement onto someone for something themselves have also done at one time without being judged? Can't be done.
The Artists need to understand that copying can be used in a VERY Promoting way. That's how probably 90% of the artists got to where they are today.
Copying a song and/or CD and giving it to my friend is no more illegal than them copying the song from the radio IMO.
Technically, we shouldn't even have radios. Why should others be able to even listen to music that's protected and not purchased? Who knows, they could record a song one of those artists have made! What a trajedy that would be?!
In this day and age, we need to stop worrying about stupid things.. If I took let's say i.Robot for WindowBlinds for instance and altered it slightly and passed it as my own, I'd be banned. So that even cuts out the altering someones music slightly or backwards or whatever, and then distributing it.
If copying anything is this morally wrong and punishable. Imagine where we'd be.
No computers, no music, no nothing. Mideswell be back in the ice ages.
Anything here http://www.copyright.gov that shows as against copyright law is. This is the "stone word" regarding this entire situation.
Copying Music for someone else (Even if no profit was made).. Is ILLEGAL.
Copying Music for your OWN PERSONAL BACKUP... Is NOT ILLEGAL.
Inviting Someone over your house to listen to a CD you purchased.... Is NOT ILLEGAL.
This is the technicality..
However, everyone (regardless of who admits) is illegal of making a copy of a CD or accepting one at one time or another. EVERYONE. This includes Musical Artists, Attourneys, Judges and just every day people such as myself.
Hence, we're all currently or have in the past broken a copyright law. So how could anyone (including Judges) pass judgement onto someone for something themselves have also done at one time without being judged? Can't be done.
The Artists need to understand that copying can be used in a VERY Promoting way. That's how probably 90% of the artists got to where they are today.
Copying a song and/or CD and giving it to my friend is no more illegal than them copying the song from the radio IMO.
Technically, we shouldn't even have radios. Why should others be able to even listen to music that's protected and not purchased? Who knows, they could record a song one of those artists have made! What a trajedy that would be?!
In this day and age, we need to stop worrying about stupid things.. If I took let's say i.Robot for WindowBlinds for instance and altered it slightly and passed it as my own, I'd be banned. So that even cuts out the altering someones music slightly or backwards or whatever, and then distributing it.
If copying anything is this morally wrong and punishable. Imagine where we'd be.
No computers, no music, no nothing. Mideswell be back in the ice ages.
Vailene
Reply #59 Saturday, December 24, 2005 5:47 AM
Reply #59 Saturday, December 24, 2005 5:47 AM
On an additional note...
Only "proper" way to deal with the issue is this..
*Shut down all P2P Programs that have "music sharing" capabilities and not proper authority to distribute the content. Or require them to edit the code to "detect" such files as to block them no matter what file format. (To also include irc channels that having "sharing" capability. Afterall, does www.ircspy.com not list where you can find full album downloads on IRC Channels.)
*Burn such a code onto a CD that even the most advanced programs are unable to copy them. If you purchase a CD from a store you only listen to them in CD Players. Period. If you purchase music online (legally) they are to only be listened to on your computer or media device. Ripping would then be illegal in this aspect. Period. (Probably an impossible step.)
This is the reality. Like it or not. If you are 100% supportive of copyright law, I trust you haven't done ANY of this in your lifetime.. To include copying tapes, radio "songs", etc...
Main problem is, everyone will pick and choose what is proper and what is not.. To suit their own needs.
Right and Wrong have nothing to do with any of this. It's all personal conception of the situation.
I personally see nothing wrong with going to www.mp3search.ru and paying my $1.10 per album (on average) as russian law is a bit different and the labels aren't entitled to as much. The US Supreme Court can't convict them, so technically it's legal. (But, this is also probably viewed as wrong by someone. See?)
Again, to point to my first post on the matter. No one can judge this as EVERYONE is/or was guilty of copyright law infringement at one time or another. Severe or not.
Besides.. Imagine the anarchy on a worldwide scale if any or all of these were imposed. Ever seen Fight Club. Different scenerio I know and different target. But imagine that 10 fold if not more. Some things such as this are just better left alone. I'm sure the artists and everyone else can still sleep at night if someone gives their friend a copied CD.........
Only "proper" way to deal with the issue is this..
*Shut down all P2P Programs that have "music sharing" capabilities and not proper authority to distribute the content. Or require them to edit the code to "detect" such files as to block them no matter what file format. (To also include irc channels that having "sharing" capability. Afterall, does www.ircspy.com not list where you can find full album downloads on IRC Channels.)
*Burn such a code onto a CD that even the most advanced programs are unable to copy them. If you purchase a CD from a store you only listen to them in CD Players. Period. If you purchase music online (legally) they are to only be listened to on your computer or media device. Ripping would then be illegal in this aspect. Period. (Probably an impossible step.)
This is the reality. Like it or not. If you are 100% supportive of copyright law, I trust you haven't done ANY of this in your lifetime.. To include copying tapes, radio "songs", etc...
Main problem is, everyone will pick and choose what is proper and what is not.. To suit their own needs.
Right and Wrong have nothing to do with any of this. It's all personal conception of the situation.
I personally see nothing wrong with going to www.mp3search.ru and paying my $1.10 per album (on average) as russian law is a bit different and the labels aren't entitled to as much. The US Supreme Court can't convict them, so technically it's legal.
(But, this is also probably viewed as wrong by someone. See?)Again, to point to my first post on the matter. No one can judge this as EVERYONE is/or was guilty of copyright law infringement at one time or another. Severe or not.
Besides.. Imagine the anarchy on a worldwide scale if any or all of these were imposed. Ever seen Fight Club. Different scenerio I know and different target. But imagine that 10 fold if not more. Some things such as this are just better left alone. I'm sure the artists and everyone else can still sleep at night if someone gives their friend a copied CD.........
kona0197
Reply #60 Saturday, December 24, 2005 3:07 PM
Reply #60 Saturday, December 24, 2005 3:07 PM
Said it once and I'll say it again. Gotta love the "Holier than thou" attitude. People talk about how wrong it is to share music yet I know just about everyone has done it. 
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Reply #41 Saturday, December 17, 2005 9:05 AM
Ok, Mr. Music Industry... considering the artists don't make $1 per CD sold, how is it hurting "my favorite artists" if I download songs.
From where I sit, nothing costs artists more than the thieves and other scum in the "music" industry.
Downloading songs without the right IS stealing, but when the little babies in the music industry whine about it, it sounds a whole lot like one street gang calling the other "punks!"
And don't even get me started on the infantile oafs in software! Nobody costs most software companies more than the vermin themselves!