Windows Vista: A pre-beta 2 status report
The good, the bad, and the ugly
Thursday, May 18, 2006 by Frogboy | Discussion: Windows Vista
A Vista of the Leopard
Let me start this article by saying that I think Windows Vista is the most important version of Microsoft Windows since 1995. If Windows 95 had been a disaster for Microsoft, we might all be running some flavor of IBM's OS/2 today. Most people take for granted that if you run a PC, you run Microsoft Windows. But as Windows XP nears its 5th birthday, such assumptions start to be called into question.
Apple's "BootCamp" enables users of Intel-based Macs to boot between Windows XP (or Vista) and MacOS X. Look carefully at Apple's ads and you will find that they are promoting the hardware quality even more so than the OS. Who they are targeting is clear -- performance minded PC users who might buy that PowerBook to put Windows XP on. Some percentage of those Windows users are likely to end up as Mac users.
The next version of MacOS X "Leopard" is scheduled to essentially come out at the same time as Windows Vista (roughly beginning of next year for general availability). Two brand new operating systems (as far as the public is concerned) running on the same kind of hardware. It will be impossible to ignore the comparisons.
However, where Leopard will be the 5th revision of a very modern OS architecture, Windows Vista will be a brand new OS designed to look like previous versions of Windows. Windows Vista is a major change from Windows XP. It is not as much of a departure as MacOS X was from OS9, but it is a much bigger change than Windows XP was from say Windows 2000.
This means the level of polish in Windows Vista is going to be crucial. The slogan for Windows Vista is "Clear, Confident, Connected". And I must say, Windows Vista has the pieces to make that slogan true. The question is whether Microsoft can deliver those pieces with the polish, integrity, and reliability that users expect.
When users start to get their hands on Windows Vista Beta 2, they need to remind themselves of these 3 facts:
- Most users of "Whistler" (the beta of Windows XP) beta 2 (May 2001) were able to use it full-time as their main OS.
- Windows Vista's RTM is probably around the end of October with a general availability in January 2007 for mortals.
- A 32-bit PC can address up to 4 gigabytes of memory per process (really 2 gigabytes in practice).
Yes, Microsoft does "get it"
Sometime in 2003 someone with power at Microsoft got fed up with Microsoft getting tagged as making "mediocre" operating systems. They got sick of Mac zealots and Linux advocates chanting about the ancient architecture and outdated design of Windows. And they decided that the next version of Windows would truly be state of the art.
Microsoft lists a bunch of features to highlight for Windows Vista. As far as I'm concerned, there are 4 features of Windows Vista that have the potential to change the world.
- The Desktop Window Manager (DWM). Outside techies, you won't hear about this. But your entire Windows Vista experience runs in 3D now. Oh, it looks 2D. Your apps and the desktop itself looks similar to Windows XP right? But it's all a 3D surface. It would be like loading up a PC game where the GUI is made to look like Windows XP but you know you're inside a game.
The reason that's a big deal is because it means all those great features on your video cards can finally be used seamlessly as part of your desktop applications. In Windows XP, users are usually quite conscious when they're switching to a full screen DirectX application. Now, the desktop IS a full screen DirectX application. You're always in DirectX now essentially (via Milcore). I can't even begin to tell you all the goodies Stardock has been cooking up that make use of that. For users, it means a radically improved user experience.
- Windows Communication Foundation (WCF). Microsoft will be touting the security of Windows Vista a lot. But a lot of the security going forward will be the result of Microsoft's totally new networking foundation. The network code in Windows XP is, essentially a heavily patched version of what's been in Windows since around the Windows for Workgroup days.
Remember the early 90s? Nice times? Kumbaya? Before we all realized that there were jerks on the Internet with nothing better to do than to write malicious viruses, malware, DDOS clients, adware, etc? Microsoft has worked hard on Windows XP to keep patching things. But Windows Vista represents a new direction, a networking infrastructure built from scratch with today's security issues in mind.
- Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF). This was called Avalon. This goes a bit with item #1. But the reason why WPF is important is that it allows software developers to write new programs that make use of the fact that the Windows environment is now essentially a full-screen 3D DirectX application. Microsoft has a bunch of tools and a whole development infrastructure that had to be built in parallel in order to pull this off. XAML and other terms will become increasingly mainstream over the next few years as we see developers creating radically better looking, more friendly software.
- Live Anywhere. Jason Cross has a great article about Live Anywhere. Essentially, one can picture a world in which Microsoft's "points" become the digital currency of choice. In 5 years, if Microsoft pulls it off (and I think they have a good chance of doing it) people will be able to buy games, software, music, movies, etc. with Microsoft points via Live Anywhere.
Before anyone gets "big brotherish" about this, there are some real benefits to this -- as Live on the Xbox has proven, it opens the door to independent content providers to be able to make money on the Internet. It dramatically lowers the barrier to entry. Right now on the PC there are 3 PC game digital retailers of note (4 if you count Gametap). Direct2Drive, Steam, and TotalGaming.net. Live Anywhere could end up replacing or complementing these services. But games would be just the beginning. Combined with things like Urge and the upcoming demand for HD video content and you have consumer demand for what Live Anywhere could do.
All of this has been put together into an OS that has a much cleaner, better organized, more polished interface and environment.
Those 4 features have far-reaching consequences if Microsoft pulls them off well. Each one really deserves a long article on their own to explain their potential. Any single one of these features would have been justification for a "new" version of Windows.
And yet, Microsoft is not just putting these 4 major things together into Vista (either bundled or as part of its overall move forward), it's including dozens of minor (and not so minor) features in there as well as well as having to put together a support structure for developers and users and hardware vendors to make use of this stuff. And on top of that they're trying to release this with 6 different SCUs that amount to "Windows Vista crap" and "Windows Vista Ultimate" and 4 versions in between.
A Vista of the precipice
So Microsoft gets it. But great ideas and great designs really hinge on execution. And that brings us to where we are right now in May 2006.
Right now, Windows Vista has a few serious problems. Perhaps my concerns are overstated and this article will be merely a foot note of "doom and gloomers" who were wrong. I hope so. I want Windows Vista to succeed. So let me put forth my concerns and you be the judge of whether I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.
Disclaimer: This is based on my experiences with beta 5381. I was recently invited by Microsoft to a briefing of what's new in Windows Vista which is one of the reasons why I'm so excited about the concept of Windows Vista. I also made sure to specifically ask on the first day if we could now publicly talk about this beta build and show screenshots since previously we were not supposed to put up screenshots.
Problem #1: Memory is cheap but we're at the end of the 32-bit line..
For the last several years, I and other people's response when a new OS or application used a lot of memory was to respond "memory is cheap, just add some more..." Well, the good news is that thanks to Physical Address Extensions on most modern CPUs, your PC can theoretically handle up to 64 gigabytes of memory.
The bad news is that most motherboards stop at 4 gigabytes and each process can only use up to 2 gigabytes of memory (3 with tweaking) unless they use AWE (Address Windowing Extensions) which is not something most developers want to get into.
So why should you care? Because Windows Vista uses a lot more memory than previous versions of Windows right now. 720 Megabytes are used on a fresh boot (on my test box) vs. around 250 Megabytes on Windows XP. And that's before third parties get their hands on it and put on their stuff.
To be fair, I could probably get this down to 500 megabytes with some power user trimming (just as power users can get XP down to under 100 megabytes). But you're talking about a lot of memory. For most people, tossing on 8 gigabytes of memory onto their machine isn't an option. Going to 64-bit is the next step but that may prove harder than most people think because many applications require 64-bit specific versions.
The point of this is that this all seems to point that these cool new features have a significant memory overhead in order to make use of. And that 4 gigabyte limit could really become an issue sooner rather than later.
Problem #2: Handles? What are they? The new Resource limit.
Most people don't know what handles are. Most people don't need to care about them. But unless Windows Vista is able to do something about them, the term "user handles" will start to become something people know about, read about, buy utilities to deal with.
Right now, hit Ctrl-Shift-Esc on your computer. This brings up the task manager on Windows XP. Go to the Performance tab. How many handles are you using right now? I've got a ton of programs going right now and I'm using 18,000 handles. When my machine boots, it's using around 2,400 handles.
What does that number mean? Depending on your configuration, somewhere around 25,000 handles your Windows machine will start to slow down dramatically and eventually programs will fail to launch, weird errors will start to show up and eventually things will start to crash or not function.
My Windows Vista box starts out at around 12,000 handles on boot up and quickly climbs to 15,000 without really doing anything. Loading up Internet Explorer 7 takes it up rather quickly to 800 megs of memory and a lot more handles being used.
My concern is that non-power users are going to start bumping up against the handle limit. The 64-bit version of Vista doesn't seem to have a problem with lots of handles so there is an escape path for the long term.
What I am hoping is that if someone with clout at Microsoft will have this issue brought to their attention and have it dealt with. The handle issue is already a problem for many power users on Windows XP. It's probably the most common cause of system instability. With Windows Vista having built in search (which consumes a lot of handles just as Google Desktop does), handles could become a serious problem.
Problem #3: Compatibility
The radical architectural improvements to Windows may come with a price -- compatibility. First, let me say loudly that it is not fair to judge the final product based on the beta. But I do know what the compatibility was on Whistler at this stage versus Vista. And if your response to that is "Yea but Vista is a much bigger change" then realize this -- it doesn't matter to users how big the change is under the covers if their programs don't run. Windows Vista is supposed to be going to manufacturing in a few months.
Users submitting bugs (and feel free to ask anyone in the beta to verify this) can tell you tales of reporting a bug or compatibility problem to have it closed with a "working as designed". I know our guys are getting frustrated turning in a well documented, repeatable bugs only to have it seemingly blown off and having it continue to show up month after month (Hey, Logon team, we're all waiting for a replacement API to the Winlogon notify stuff, it's been half a year!).
If you stick with the built in apps in Windows Vista along with very mainstream apps, things are fine. But as soon as you start venturing out, things get murky. And I don't refer to desktop enhancement programs (WindowBlinds is running fine on Windows Vista). It's usually "little things". My Verizon connection program or some shareware program or whatever.
As an evil capitalistic developer, poor compatibility is good news "New version! Now works on Windows Vista! Pay up! Whohaaha (singing) I'm getting a boat..a brand..new..boat (/singing)" But as a user, I am concerned that early adopters may find that many tools and programs they rely on have problems.
This may simply be something that Microsoft can't solve or shouldn't solve. But if that is the case, then Microsoft needs to spread the message that Windows Vista is a truly new version of Windows and some legacy software may need to be updated. I think users will understand that as long as it's communicated effectively before hand.
But for users who can't get their scanner to work or some custom gizmo, or applet that came bundled with their printer or whatever, it's going to be annoying if they had no idea that going to Vista was going to mean that a noticeable chunk of their programs don't run correctly.
Let me show you a screenshot that shows the excellent potential of Vista as well as the current problems:
What a cool utility and yet it also implies we have a long way to go.
Problem #4: Unowned Slop
What the heck is all this crap in my task list on boot up? SVChost wasn't funny in Windows XP when there were 5 of them and it's a lot less funny when there are a dozen of them -- ON A FRESH BOOT UP! Look at this stuff. These are all the processes running on a fresh boot up of Windows Vista beta (5381).
Microsoft talks about security but it's just not acceptable that Windows Vista should have a generic process name like svchost anymore. Each thing that wants a piece of my memory should have to have a name so that we know what it is. A third party could certainly write an application that digs into each svchost and then refeeds it into task list but this really should be part of the OS. I think it would also put more pressure on the various empires within Microsoft to justify their existence as part of the initial boot.
Most of all, it just looks sloppy. Clean? Clear? Confident? Some early adopters are going to open this up, see this mess and think "Bloated, sloppy, kludged". Feel free to comment on what your thoughts are on that. Am I just being anal? Maybe. But I suspect there's a lot of people out there who are going to take having 41 processes on bootup of which a dozen of them are called svchost.exe (as well as various duplicate process names) and not think kindly.
Problem #5: It's Annoying!
There are so many new "security" oriented dialogs that the entire experience, when coupled with the above mentioned issues take out the "fun" of using the OS. Want to empty your recycle bin? You need to go through multiple dialogs to do that including a security prompt! Even as a so-called administrator, you can't get into all the folders on your system. And some of the folders you can get into, you can't write to files in them! Admins have certainly lost a lot of power it seems. See the screenshot of trying to get into "My Pictures" as an admin.
It's really hard to describe in words how annoying it is to constantly be prompted to enter a password or to boost your privileges to do seemingly trivial things. It interrupts ones workflow, train of thought and well, it just goofs up my groove, man. Microsoft is working on these issues and they are aware of them, but the recycling bin debacle makes me wonder how such obvious issues could make it so far into the beta process.
So what should be done?
Windows Vista is more important than Windows XP or Windows 2000. It is an ambitious project that demonstrates Microsoft's ability to innovate. A lot of people unfairly criticize Microsoft for not being innovative. Sometimes the criticism is fair but Windows Vista truly is innovative. Even if some of the ideas in Windows Vista got executed elsewhere first, Microsoft had come up with many concepts and ideas first (gadgets may seem similar to Apple's widgets which were similar to Konfabulator's widgets but were all predated by DesktopX by years which was predated by Active Desktop and other concepts as well for instance and the Sidebar gadgets were in the earliest Longhorn builds long before Konfabulator showed up -- though after DesktopX).
But what we need to know is that Microsoft will not rush Windows Vista out for some arbitrary marketing date. That, if necessary, Microsoft will move the Windows Vista date back even if that makes PC manufacturers scream bloody murder.
I am not suggesting that Microsoft can't address the concerns I point out there by the time they hope to release to manufacturing. But I am saying that I think it is going to be a very tense summer in Redmond in order to make the date given where the OS is right now. When Windows Vista beta 2 comes out for the public, people will be able to judge for themselves and decide what the status of the OS is.
What are your thoughts?
Reply #2 Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:05 PM
I say the 64 bit is critical for the reasons you state. The others are great to hear. Gigs of memory are not really a problem - except in 32bit. Time to move the curve.
Excellent review. I am anxious to get my hands on it! I was going to upgrade, but think I will wait for Vista. I can hop along until then.
Reply #3 Thursday, May 18, 2006 5:57 PM
The question is whether Microsoft can deliver those pieces with the polish, integrity, and reliability that users expect. |
Polish... Yeah it needs a lot more bloody polish then I've seen so far, unless screenshots really don't do it justice for some reason? I thought every old icon was meant to be replaced? They haven't even got to taskman yet....
Reply #4 Thursday, May 18, 2006 6:22 PM
What really drives me nuts are the security dialogs like you said. Hell I diddn't get service pack 2 untill a few weeks ago just because of all of the questions. I figure if I installed an official program and start it up myself then I should know what I'm doing. It should be alot smarter rather then just saying it's trying to access the internet. The internet is my life, almost all of my programs need the internet. But I can't say much because I don't have the beta so I don't know if it is better or not.
Well, that's just my opinion.
Reply #5 Thursday, May 18, 2006 6:40 PM
Regarding the handles: is the handle limit related to wheter it's an 32bit system or 64bit system? If it is: that would mean that Vista will have the same handle issues as XP?
Reply #6 Thursday, May 18, 2006 6:41 PM
Polish... Yeah it needs a lot more bloody polish then I've seen so far, unless screenshots really don't do it justice for some reason? |
You can't get a screenshot of everything that's changed under the hood that doesn't have an UI.
Reply #7 Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:23 PM
Reply #8 Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:30 PM
Someone asked [in a thread here] how much mem, etc was used by various AV proggies...and I replied that not too many people would be bothered to try to work it out....he considered that a bit of a negative attitude...I pointed to svchosts all over the place and said 'knock yourself out deciphering them'.
'svchost' is tech-speak for 'that process thingie we dunno what it's for, but'
I currently have a bit over 20,000 handles....[in XP].....
Reply #9 Thursday, May 18, 2006 8:57 PM
I agree about number 5. I finally got a Vista invite and installed it. I tried to delete an icon on the desktop and got two security warnings just to do that.
Reply #10 Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:02 PM
#4... Glad to know there are people out there who are just as anal as me. This multitude of processes, in my mind, is completely unacceptable. Clean up the boot-up nonsense...
#5... Annoying perhaps isn't the word for this. Power users, basic users, All knowing administrators will get tired of this "security feature" quickly. There has to be a better way.
Reply #11 Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:17 PM
"There are so many new "security" oriented dialogs that the entire experience, when coupled with the above mentioned issues take out the "fun" of using the OS. Want to empty your recycle bin? You need to go through multiple dialogs to do that including a security prompt! Even as a so-called administrator, you can't get into all the folders on your system. And some of the folders you can get into, you can't write to files in them! Admins have certainly lost a lot of power it seems. See the screenshot of trying to get into "My Pictures" as an admin." and "It's really hard to describe in words how annoying it is to constantly be prompted to enter a password or to boost your privileges to do seemingly trivial things. It interrupts ones workflow, train of thought and well, it just goofs up my groove, man. Microsoft is working on these issues and they are aware of them, but the recycling bin debacle makes me wonder how such obvious issues could make it so far into the beta process." As a business owner I feel that this is going to slow a person's performance down. This will pervent businesses and John Q public from ever wanting to upgrade.
Speedy
P.S. this is from an email that my boss sent me. I fully support all that was said and that is why I posted this. I sent him a copy of the original post to this thread.
Reply #12 Thursday, May 18, 2006 9:29 PM
Someone asked [in a thread here] how much mem, etc was used by various AV proggies...and I replied that not too many people would be bothered to try to work it out....he considered that a bit of a negative attitude...I pointed to svchosts all over the place and said 'knock yourself out deciphering them'. |
That was me Jafo...thanks for the shout....
Reply #13 Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:42 PM
- The Workaround.
Loading up a "temporary" admin status on either a Power User or Administrator account at the time where the OS logs you in, would be the easiest way to stop the system from showing up the annoying security-warning dialogs every time you have to do stuff like moving a file from one folder to another in the system, replacing, renaming or deleting files. Now, however the timer runs, regardless of how long it could stay "activated", we will have a powerfull tool which grants us with the privilege we need to do common tasks in our Computers. Let's say you give the timer 20 minutes per session, now ever since you logged in you will have a period of 20 minutes in where you can execute these common tasks without having to be bothered by the systems' security warnings. Forget about the 20 minutes limit, this could be configured under the system policies to fit everyone's needs, even with a single setting per user account.
Now what happens when the timer is over?... All of our Admin powers are lost (they're gone!) and we would either have to log-off and log back on (not a kind way to stop me from finishing my work), suffer the "sec-warning-diags" attack or work around another method to regain these powers, by either telling the system to ask for an admin password confirmation to give you back these powers. Now here is where our little friend named "timer" comes to the rescue. I wouldn't want to have to enter a password every 20 minutes because I lost my admin powers or such, so I can just change the settings under my timer, and set it to whatever the system limit is/would be; let me exaggerate... 2 days.
It sounds complicated but it also looks as the only way to get out of this mess without having to "re-do" all or most of the already written security core. The current security under Windows Vista is just amazing and extremelly "secure" but it hurts the guts like a stab (at least, thats how i feel it; not that I've ever been stabbed though...). Having a "temp admin powers" feature would be the easiest way to take away our fear of having to right-click our Recycle Bin wondering if we will have to go through the "sec-warning-diag" storm again!.
- Strength and flaws in this method.
I'm pretty sure the DevTeam could work this up and add a bunch of ways to configure your Windows Vista to meet your security needs. Such prompts are not needed at home when your kid is playing a very entertaining NFL game, or when you are watching your local TV Listing with Media Center, or simply going through all your pictures from last year. Therefore, we should be able to configure all this stuff previous installing the system, or right after its done installing and ready to configure your desktop (or ready to "start" how Microsoft calls it; now that really made me cry of joy; they got style) or simply by googling it online or wait until some geek user finds the way to do it and spreads the good news on every forum over the net...
On the other hand, Corporate users, Offices and such DO need to have control over this. Here is where our whole new method turns from being totally useless to a must-configure feature under the OS for it to work just as we want or need it.
I tried to make this whole mess something easier for everyone, but if you read my post a FEW 4 times you will get the point. Hope I have expressed myself correctly.
Jaziel.
Reply #14 Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:47 PM
Microsoft appears to be gearing up to sell a headache with the belief that people are gladly going to pay for many expensive medicines to cure it.
I don't think people are going to understand. At least not your basic user. It just looks like a huge investment for a sub-standard (so far) product. They should slow down and get it right.
Then again, if any company can pull this off.......
PC
Reply #16 Friday, May 19, 2006 12:03 AM
More than 1 512 MB just to boot? 20,000 plus handles? Jesus. We are doing this all for what? A prettier picture? I know that talking crap about a UI on a skinning site is tabboo, but UI is cool up to a point. You should not have to have a super-computer just to run an OS, you should have a super computer to do super things.
I personally feel that Windows should take a hard look at what Apple has done with Mac OS (which, may I mention, Windows stole from Apple early on. Lucky Apple kept up and made something that is, in my opinion, better.). Somehow or another other operating systems have found a way to run in a stable manner without eating computer resources.
Also, the security stuff you all talked about in my opinion is crap. As a normal user, I should not be prompted for a password to do anything. Obviously, if I logged on as an Admin, I know what I am doing, and want to do what it is that I am doing. It is not so important to keep someone out that you hinder an already clunky thing. Why should you have to go to SO much trouble to make something that suposedly is there to make our lives easier work?
So, that is my rant. As much as you may hate what I say, I needed to say it. I like Windows (when it works), and use it because I must (Apple is cool, but expensive). Do not let the cool news of new things blind you from the reality that something that is supposed to simplify things has gotten so damn complicated.
Reply #17 Friday, May 19, 2006 12:21 AM
i'm also still worried about the bulk of puzzle peices in windows, it doesn't appear to me that those zillions of peices have been combined and streamlined, and the more peices you have the more that is going to break, be hacked, or use resources.
I am also .. well, blustered to think that if i wnat to upgrade to vista, it is going to use 700 megs of memory, raw, and need all of my video card. If you can run OSX Leapard on an ibook G4, you should be able to run Vista on four year old hardware - on a gig of ram, and it should run comfortably with 64 megs of video without sacrificing the 3d desktop engine ( does it? glass titlebars are one thing but that engine must run on existing hardware ).
The rest of you may be gamers and hobbiests with 4 gig of ram systems and 3 ghz processors, but 95% of vista buyers are not. For example, i'm not your average computer guy either - but there is nothing wrong with my computer, built four years ago, and i'm sick to think that i will have to get a new one in order to get this OS running the way it was meant to .( a four year old compouter, HA! well you SHOULD upgrade! ) no, i have a 256 meg vid card, 1.5 ghz processor, and a gig of ram - and it does my work beautifully. It steams through XP. But i hear this will not be enough for vista??
that is, for what it's worth, my humble opinion. i want vista. but i don't want to buy a new computer, i'm not ready.
Reply #18 Friday, May 19, 2006 5:32 AM
The rest of you may be gamers and hobbiests with 4 gig of ram systems and 3 ghz processors, but 95% of vista buyers are not. |
Most Vista buyers will be people buying new computers, and most new computers these days should handle Vista fine.
Reply #19 Friday, May 19, 2006 6:41 AM
Reply #20 Friday, May 19, 2006 7:17 AM
*click* not again... *click* yes I really want *click* YES! *click* ...
So, there's a good chance that you'll click 'Yes' by reflex on the one really cirtical pop-up where you should have clicked 'No'.
For handles and memory usage... insane. Just insane.
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Reply #1 Thursday, May 18, 2006 4:56 PM
Can't wait to check Vista goodies.