GUI Championships 2008: Icon Packages
Tuesday, December 9, 2008 by Frogboy | Discussion: Personal Computing
This year for the GUI Championships, an international contest to find the world's best graphics designer for computer interfaces, we have GUI design with WindowBlinds and icon design with IconPackager as well as a new fun category this year, animated wallpaper via DeskScapes.
For the icon package judging, my job is to take a look at how good the icons are in real world use from an originality point of view, from a usability point of view and overall. The screenshots for the icons are fantastic but how good are they in actual use?
Each of the 3 judges has their own criteria for deciding what the best icons are. My criteria works as follows:
Base score of 1 through 10.
Bonus points for supporting control panel icons and lots of different file icons.
A penalty point for not supporting Windows Vista folders and another penalty point for not supporting live folders.
I also look at the icons in both their large and small sizes to see how usable they are at different resolutions. I'm using a new Stardock program called Fences that is currently in beta to organize my desktop for the screenshots.
Note that in my screenshots the short cut image doesn't get changed. Looking into that.
Brad's judging:
Red Ghost by Leilei looks pretty good artistically but lacks Windows Vista support
Originality: 5
Usability: 3
Overall: 4
1 by lelei
All My LIfe by Beli is an interesting concept. It doesn't really change enough icons though to be very complete and there's not quite enough variety to make it competitive but I like the style.
Originality: 4
Usability: 4
Overall: 4
Ancient Legend by Zuo Zhiyu is one of my favorites in teh contest. Good Vista support. It makes me wish IconPackager's live folder support was a bit more flexible. The artistic quality here though is really good.
Originality: 8
Usability: 7
Overall: 7
Blue Memory 2 by dtu is an outstanding icon package that is very complete. Full Vista support, if these icons showed up as the default Windows 7 icons, I wouldn't have thought twice.
Originality: 3
Usability: 9
Overall: 7
Bronze Age by chuigang is a good effort. It doesn't fully support Vista but is has live folder support. I really like the folder look on this.
Originality: 6
Usability: 6
Overall: 6
Brush & Ink Stick by Jason Joanne is a pretty creative idea. If you have Windows XP, this is a pretty good package. If you have Windows Vista, you might as well skip it.
Originality: 7
Usability: 2
Overall: 5
Carving Time by Tongzhenming is a lot better than this screenshot looks. It is one of the more complete Windows XP icon packages with lots of file types changed. It's also quite creative.
Originality: 7
Usability: 5
Overall: 6
Shadow Fight by CJShadow is a pretty original concept that is reasonably complete for Windows XP but not for Windows Vista.
Originality: 7
Usability: 2
Overall: 5
Colorabo has an interesting design but I can't help but think that there's no particular overarching theme to it other than a jumble of colors. The artistic quality is quite high, I like the Audio CD icon in particular. No Windows Vista support.
Originality: 5
Usability: 5
Overall: 5
Colorful by Motozhang is a nice effort but there aren't enough icons in it to be competitive. The art quality of what's there is very good though.
Originality: 3
Usability: 2
Overall: 2
Colorful paint by kidaubis is a very stylized oriignal concept that is quite original. Bonus points for being such a complete XP package (lots of file types supported). The 16x16 version of the icons are remarkably distinct too. If this were the 2004 GUI Championships, this would likely be a finalist but the lack of Vista support is going to make it tougher this time.
Originality: 7
Usability: 7
Overall: 7
Cosy Style by Knightpan is a fairly traditional design that is well executed. It has some support for Vista with live folders. It feels like an alternative OS concept. It is well executed. Bonus points for being a particularly complete XP package. Vista support is a bit weak.
Originality: 3
Usability: 8
Overall: 7
Crayin by PiscDong studio is a very nice concept that is also very well executed. Bonus points for being very complete for Windows XP. If this were the 2004 contest, this would be a definite finalist. Vista support is incomplete but this is definitely one of the best XP packages.
Originality: 7
Usability: 8
Overall: 7
Deepblue by BottleBaby is like the name describes, very blue. Good XP support, incomplete Vista support (no live folders).
Originality: 4
Usability: 6
Overall: 5
DeepSea Blue is a bi this and miss. It's not real useful on Vista but it's pretty decent on XP. Some of the icons are quite good like the hard drive and network drive icons but overall it needs more polish and more icons to be competitive.
Originality: 4
Usability: 4
Overall: 4
Delta by Javier Aroche is possibly the most original and still complete icon packages in the contest. The art quality and variation could be better but when actually using it, it feels quite unique but complete.
Originality: 8
Usability: 7
Overall: 7
demax by Rosielle highlights the need of a future IconPackager 5 to support more variations on live folders as this package clearly has folders that would work out nicely on Vista IF we had more control over live folders. Limited Vista support.
Originality: 4
Usability: 6
Overall: 5
Dislocation by 13m is a pretty clever concept. No Vista support but lots of file type support. Usability hampered by how similar the various icon types can be.
Originality: 6
Usability: 2
Overall: 4
Dreamesp by emile is a fairly traditional icon concept. No Vista support but a nice effort.
Originality: 4
Usability: 4
Overall: 4
Element by Austin is also a pretty traditional icon design that shows some good graphics design ability.
Originality: 4
Usability: 4
Overall: 4
Eliminator by TYCUS is one of the most complete icon packages in the contest. Bonus points for supporting all kinds of files including Office 2003 and Office 2007.
Originality: 7
Usability: 9
Overall: 8
Evolution by Xiaomaohua is a somewhat traditional but with a more modern feel. One could imagine Windows 8 having icons something like this. Big bonus points for not just having lots of file type icons but particularly good file type icons (see the Exel icon in the screenshot). Vista support is partial in that live folders are there but the special icons for contacts and links and such are generic.
Originality: 8
Usability: 8
Overall: 9
Flash LIve System by Gucalov Pavel is one of the better icon packages in the contest. It's a little lacking in the number of file types it supports. This one really shines on Windows Vista but is probably a little weaker on XP due to fewer file types supported.
Some of the file types it does support though look great on XP such as the .GIF and .JPG file icons.
Originality: 7
Usability: 9
Overall: 8
Flat World by Augustleo is a fine effort. But it doesn't adhere to a consistent theme really. It's essentially a collection of good artwork with a unified folder and document concept. Definitely worth trying out though.
It's worth noting that many of this year's entries, even the less competitive ones, are still better than nearly all the entries from last time which were really quite good for their time.
Originality: 4
Usability: 5
Overall: 4
fo is a very good effort and another good Windows XP based icon package. It doesn't have much support for Vista. It is quite original.
Originality: 6
Usability: 5
Overall: 5
Fortune Box by sc5vtuqi is one of the better Windows XP icon packages but is not really useful on Windows Vista. Extra points for good XP file type support.
Originality: 6
Usability: 5
Overall: 5
Glazage by PiscDong studio is a fine effort, another Windows XP centric icon package. Art style isn't really my taste but it adheres to its style well.
Originality: 5
Usability: 4
Overall: 4
Growth by Jack Nolan is one of my favorite icon packages in the contest. Very bright, easy to read at multiple resolutions, has a clean, unique look. Is highly useful on Windows XP and Windows Vista.
Originality: 8
Usability: 9
Overall: 8
Hemosiderosis 
by Vic Xu is an XP centric theme that has basic support for Windows Vista (Live Folders and basic personal folders).
If you have Windows XP, this is a must have. It has a very strong usable look to it whether you're on XP or Vista. Extra points for outstanding file type support (even has a unique .TIF icon!). I wish Office was supported however.
Originality: 6
Usability: 8
Overall: 7
Hybrid Nights by Kitty Malone takes some risks by being largely monochromatic. IT's a pretty original style but the subtle distinction between files makes is very hard to use. It has reasonable file type support and the artistic quality is high.
Originality: 7
Usability: 1
Overall: 5
Ice Crystals by qiuui is a nice effort for Windows XP users, no Vista support. When I say that I don't mean it doesn't work on Vista but rather that it doesn't support Vista specific icons. Very limited file type support.
Originality: 5
Usability: 3
Overall: 4
IconStore by Lillian is another good effort at creating a Windows XP centric theme. Vista support is very limited.
The art quality is first rate but there just aren't enough icons to be competitive.
Originality: 4
Usability: 2
Overall: 3
Junior by Treetog is a fine effort from one of the community's best known skinners. It has full support for XP and Vista and tremendous file type support.
Treetog's work I think could benefit from better utilizing art tools or moving to full 3D as the artwork quality is not competitive with many of the other entries (it makes up for it in completeness).
For instance, the folders are pretty unimaginative. The items in folders are first rate but the integration of items into folders seems roughly done with inconsistent perspectives used making the entire scene not quite right. It's like you can tell that the desktop image that's inside the desktop folder were thrown together. This strikes me as a limitation in whatever tools Treetog uses. Ironically, the one folder that is really well done here is the live folder.
Extra points on usability for the really good Office 2003 support (look at the Excel icon).
Originality: 5
Usability: 8
Overall: 6
Luban by Kinsen is an interesting concept of icons as gold idols. It's a clever concept but not terribly usable and no Vista support. Limited file icon support on XP.
Originality: 6
Usability: 1
Overall: 3
Koo'er by kiwi-penguin is an intersting concept but somewhat unevent in its implemtation. I like some parts of it like the hard drive and other simplistic parts but other parts are too busy to be easy to tell what they are.
Originality: 5
Usability: 5
Overall: 5
Lineless Design is one of the most original concepts in the contest. First, they are really outstanding in terms of art quality. It doesn't support Vista but the sheer creativity shown here makes this a must-have for XP users
Originality: 10
Usability: 4
Overall: 6
LittleBee is a really cool concept by Tiger that once again makes it pretty obvious that for IconPackager 5 we need to have more sophisticated live folder support in order to support better designs. This theme isn't terribly useful on Vista. But on XP it's a must have.
Bonus points for supporting lots of file types.
Originality: 8
Usability: 5
Overall: 6
Marker is anothe rentry from Mixar Penguin. An excellent XP-centric theme with limited Vista support.
Originality: 6
Usability: 7
Overall: 6
Moon Marilyn is a nice effort that takes a chance on monochromatic but it works. It's quite usable and very complete for a Windows XP theme.
Originality: 8
Usability: 7
Overall: 8
MyLife by Mi is a pretty classic style design. I don't tend to be a fan of monochromatic themes that don't have much contrast and this theme relies very heavily on blue. But it's a good effort.
Originality: 4
Overall: 4
Overall: 4
Non-Mainstream 2008 by iconboy is one of the most complete icon packages I've seen. Bonus points for lots of file type supports. It's an excellent theme for XP and Vista.
Originality: 8
Usability: 8
Overall: 8
Olympiad by Glen has unusually high art quality and very good art direction. It's got very limited support for Vista.
Originality: 8
Usability: 6
Overall: 6
Orange Alarm by Bottlebaby is one I really like but I can't put my finger on why I like it so much. It doesn't really support Vista very well but it is very complete for XP. It's not terribly useful on smaller icons (16x16 for instance).
Originality: 6
Usability: 4
Overall: 6
PaperPlane is a nice effort from Lihu1267. If this were the 2004 edition of the contest, this would be a finalist for most original. I could picture a net book with this style of icons for instance. No Vista support.
Originality: 7
Usability: 6
Overall: 7
Partikle from mommatree is a very complete icon package for XP and Vista. It's really not my style but I admire the work on it. It's not terribly useful because it's hard to tell what the icons are for.
Originality: 8
Usability: 6
Overall: 6
Peipir by PiscDong studio is another very good effort of a distinctive style. Live folder support on Vista but otherweise it's an XP theme. Very complete XP support.
Originality: 8
Usability: 7
Overall: 7
Pirate's logbook by Mojo is extremely original with decent file type support but no real Vista support. A good effort.
Originality: 7
Usability: 2
Overall: 5
Plain Trust by willouye is a great theme that supports XP and Vista fully. Limited file type support and a fairly conventional design keep it from being particularly original but its high production values and completeness will probably make this a finalist in the usability and overall categories.
Originality: 4
Usability: 8
Overall: 7
Plastic Fantastic by Tiggz may be the best entry of this year in my opinion. It's extremely original and extremely usable. My only gripe is that there's no Office support built into it (support for Office icons) but otherwise this is about as good as it gets.
Originality: 10
Usability: 10
Overall: 10
Plesant by harwen is a fairly traditional UI design that has high quality artwork included. It's not as complete as I'd like i tto see, even on XP and it doesn't support Vista.
Originality: 2
Usability: 6
Overall: 5
Pure from Silencemira is another fairly traditional icon design for Windows XP. It is fairly complete for XP including a fairly nice ZIP file icon.
Originality: 3
Usability: 6
Overall: 5
Pure handwork by tongzhemming is a fantastically original concept that is simply beautiful. I really like the drive icons in particular, the USB removeable drive one looks particularly cool.
XP only but still wonderful.
Originality: 9
Usability: 5
Overall: 7
Purple Night is an interesting concept. It has partial Vista support )live folders). The problem is that it is difficult to tell with small icons what the different files are because the shapes are so similar.
Original: 5
Usability: 4
Overall: 5
Purple Silver by kidaubis is a very nice XP effort. Extra points for so many good file type icons. If you have XP, you will definitely want to try this.
Originality: 6
Usability: 8
Overall: 7
Reality, also by Kidaubis, isn't quite as good as purple silver artistically but still a very good XP effort.
Originality: 4
Usability: 5
Overall: 5
Realight Reooo by Meilexart is a traditional icon design executed with good consistency.
Originality: 4
Usability: 4
Overall: 5
ReverseIP by Digital CHET is a grayscale concept that personally I think might have been better off as a colorful icon package. The problem with grayscale is that it tends to decrease contrast which can reduce usability. The art quality is top notch.
Full XP and Vista support, users looking for a more minimalistic theme that's easy on the eyes will definitely like this.
Originality: 7
Usability: 7
Overall: 7
Sifourd by PiscDong studio is an interesting idea though not quite my taste. Good XP support. Live folder support on Vista. Extra points for good file type support. The art direction and quality is a bit weak though.
Originality: 6
Usability: 6
Overall: 5
SilverBlue is another great theme from Kidaubis who has created another top notch work here. Like his other entries, it's XP centric so anyone with XP should definitely check this out.
Originality: 4
Usability: 6
Overall: 6
SilverShark by J.max is a unique concept with good file type support. I am not sur ehow usable it is, at smaller sizes, they are hard to discern but it's defintely a highly original effort.
Originality: 8
Usability: 7
Overall: 7
Simple by Wangzhijun is a fairly traditional XP icon package. It's a good effort but could use more art direction to provide a more consistent theme to help it stand out from the others. A good work overall.
Originality: 3
Usability: 5
Overall: 5
Simple Life by Ruyimao is a traditional XP centric icon package. A lack of distinctive icons keeps it from being as competitive as it could be.
Originality: 3
Usability: 5
Overall: 4
SketchX by Delacro is an interesting XP package that is worth checking out.
Originality: 4
Usability: 2
Overall: 3
Sky and Technology ProRed by bloody is a fun XP theme that has some neat ideas. The main problem is the lack of distinction between the icons lowers usability substantially and there aren't enough icons to make it competitive with the other entries. Art quality is good, however.
Originality: 4
Usability: 2
Overall: 3
Slantwise is a pretty decent icon package from henrysky. The icons work well at both small and large sizes and it supports live folders on Vista.
Originality: 6
Usability: 7
Overall: 7
FLASH BACK: Local Flavor from the 2004 GUI Championships. How would it do today?  Originality: 10 Usability: 8 Overall: 9 Bear in mind, this is from four years ago. |
Star by Suskey is a very original and beautiful icon package for Windows XP. File type support is a little bit on the light side which is unfortunate since any time you have something that is this radical, you want to have as many files as possible taken care of.
Originality: 8
Usability: 4
Overall: 6
Suskey is a little more traditional than his other theme "Star". It's also considerably more complete and has an icon style that would allow users to extend it to Vista on their own. No live folder support but it is a very cool icon package.
Originality: 6
Usability: 6
Overall: 6
Tang Dynasty by OMEGA features some truly outstanding arwork. The Computer short-cut for instant is a true work of art. But as an icon package, it's not ideal. The lack of shape distinctions means it is hard to differentiate icons from one another when they are smaller and the file type support is spotty and largely derivative. This is an example where one needs to run the icon package and not go by the screenshot. Great artwork but would have done better with some UI help. XP only.
Originality: 6
Usability: 3
Overall: 4
Tangram by PengLoooming is a very interesting concept that makes use of colors in a pretty unique way. Unfortunately, the folder design is so noisy that they are distracting and there is a lack of variation. Still a very good effort.
Originality: 6
Usability: 2
Overall: 3
The Magic Space by Sean King is one of my favorite XP-centric themes of the contest. The icons are bold and look good both small and large. There is quite a bit of work to make different file types stand out from one another. I do wish there were more file types and I wish there was Vista support as these icons would really shine there I think.
Originality: 7
Usability: 8
Overall: 7
The Stone Age by JasperLiu is a wonderful icon package. With the right wallpaper in particular, these would be just amazing. Good file type support, consistent design and a good blend of UI design and art skill make this one of the best XP centric themes in the contest.
Originality: 9
Usability: 8
Overall: 8
| PRO THEME SPOT LIGHT: Dragon So how do these entries compare to the pro themes created by Stardock Design. I looked at Dragon.  So how does it compare? Very complete XP and Vista support. Good, though not great file type support (no Office 2003 or Office 2007 support, no .reg file support, etc.) But in terms of something that is original and can actually be used, Dragon is hard to beat. Originality: 10 Usability: 9 Overall: 9 |
Toy by Kingyo is fantastic. This is the fourth GUI Championships I believe and this is the first time someone has made an icon package based on a toy theme I believe. It seems obvious in hindsight and yet here we are.
Definitely one of the best icon packages submitted. It's clean, it makes good use of colors. It's not just got a really cool theme but it carries it out very well. It has somewhat limited file type support but it supports XP and Vista very well.
Originality: 10
Usability: 10
Overall: 10
Toy Factory by Silencemira has the misfortune of being in the contest at the same time as Toy which allegedly has a similar theme. I say allegedly because as nice as the artwork is on this theme, there's nothing "toy factory-ish" about it. It's a pretty traditional icon design overall. It also suffers from too many similar shaped icons making them hard to discern when they are 16x16.
Originality: 4
Usability: 3
Overall: 3
Weird Creature by Edwin is a very good XP-centric theme that is original and pleasing to the eye. It has very limited file type support, no Vista support but is fairly complete for XP users other than the lack of file type icons which is pretty jarring since the theme is dramatically different than the default XP look. That said, an enhanced version of this theme with more icons would likely be in the finals and the originality of this is still good enough that I could see it make it into the finals.
Originality: 9
Usability: 3
Overall: 6
Late Additions (ones I missed originally)
CaicaiWendy by Wendy (Penguin) is a very original take on icon design. It's very interesting to look at. XP only. Very limited file support.
Originality: 6
Usability: 2
Overall: 4
Tea Life 2 by OnLing is a very original concept for Windows XP that has terrific art, very good file type support, and is reasonably complete. I like this one better than most of them by the sheer subtlety of the design. The short-cut and sharing overlays, however, are much too large (not pictured here).
Originality: 8
Usability: 4
Overall: 7
Duqi by Doo and Jen (On the road) is a really creative XP icon package. Like many of the icon packages in the contest, the name of the package when you're running it (duqi) doesn't match the uploaded file name.
The art quality is very good and the icons do a good job matching what they're supposed to represent (a lot of these might as well be just clip art thrown together but at least these do a good job matching). Pretty limited file type support. Good XP Start menu support.
Originality: 8
Usability: 4
Overall: 6
IconManiac by Lifelens is an interesting concept for XP. The elements of it don't really match as well as they could. I could almost imagine this as clipart that was put together to form icons based remotely on what they represent. When they're small, they're very hard to read. But the art style is very nice and it's a good effort.
Originality: 6
Usability: 3
Overall: 5
Plump by Zerode is a very good icon package that sticks to its theme well. One thing I really want to stress to users when they're voting on these and looking at screenshots is that these are supposed to be icons - not clipart. While one can imagine a really beautiful looking rendered image of a computer or of a recycle bin, the question is, do these elements go together? This is an example of one that goes together very well.
It has Live Folders for Vista though it doesn't have full support for the Vista folders. The icons look good at large and small size. This is one of the best icon packages of the contest.
Originality: 6
Usability: 9
Overall: 9
--
MORE icon packages that I initially missed
Yuuminco by dReamxis is a pretty good effort with nice file type support. It supports Vistavery well.
Originality: 7
Usability: 7
Overall: 7
Budha in my heart (Fo) is a very good XP effort that is very original. It does seem like it is a little light on the color palette (like it uses fewer colors than it should) but it is very good.
Originality: 9
Usability: 7
Overall: 7
Easy to Use by Kendy is a nice design that's fairly traditional but has very good art direction. XP only.
Originality: 4
Usability: 7
Overall: 6
Fight is a very creative concept that isn't terribly usable nor does it support XP. But the creativity and art quality is top notch.
Originality: 7
Usability: 2
Overall: 5
One Piece is one of the better icon package designs in the contest. Fantastic file type support, complete XP support but no Vista support. Great work though.
Originality: 6
Usability: 9
Overall: 9
The Magic Space is an outstanding XP centric icon package that adheres to its theme very well. Highly original. I wish it supported Vista but a must-have for XP users.
Originality: 9
Usability: 7
Overall: 8
And to finish up...
NightLit3 is a very good effort that in the right circumstances (right wallpaper in partiular) is very compelling.
Originality: 8
Usability: 7
Overall: 7
------
Some final thoughts...
First, I want to say how impressive the icon packages are this time. A lot of our contestants are coming from China and they really know how to create some wonderful icons over there because there are some beautiful works here.
To everyone who participated, thank you very much. I am only one of the three judges and we only decide who makes it into the finals, the users decide who actually wins but I think there are some icons that really do stand out amongst this impressive field.
Suggestions for the future...
First, IconPackager 5 needs to support more options on Windows Live folders. I don't know how we'll do it but it's a must really as the current setup is too limiting to icon artists.
Second, I was really surprised at how many icon packages didn't support Vista. Some of the XP only icon packages were so good that they made up for not having a Vista version but it still surprised me given how long Vista has been out now.
Third, I was also surprised that not one package supported changing the Vista Control Panel icons. A few of them changed the classic (mostly XP) icons but still, an opportunity lost I think.
Fourth, a suggestion: I think most people running Windows these days have Office installed. I was surprised at how few of the icon packages change the Office icons (2003 or 2007).
Fifth, as cool as large icons are for showing off ones prowess, making icons also involves graphics design. A great big icon may look weird or unintelligible at 16x16:
(Weird Creature actually had better than average 16x16 icons compared to Plastic Fantastic which doesn't just look great large but is very crisp at 16x16)
Sixth, Photoshop, Illustrator, and Corel Draw I think are starting to see their final days as the tools of choice. The icons being made in 3D Studio, Maya and other 3D programs tend to look a lot better I think.
Seventh, PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT judge skins or icons based on the contestant's provided screen shot. Use the ones in this article or better yet, download them and try them for yourself.
Eighth, I'm still surprised how many ugly icons Microsoft still has in Windows Vista. Thank you to icon designers from around the world for taking a good shot at making icons that in many cases surpass what Microsoft produced.
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Reply #82 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 2:08 AM
"For crying out loud, it's not about quantity. It's about supporting the curreent version of Windows. Good gravy, man. How about some common sense: If your icon package is basically useless for 25%+ of the userbase, then yea, you're going to take a hit."
You make it about quantity by deducting such a huge amount from the possible score. Yes, we all want all the icons skinned, and yes, Vista or something like it is the future, and yes, you ought to deduct something for incompleteness, just not so much, and let skinners know in advance that it's that important. I don't consider an incomplete package to be basically useless at all. I use them all the time.
"Also, don't play the "customer" card. My view is that if you're a whiner, don't buy our stuff. And whiney people should tell their whiney friends and so forth to not buy our stuff."
Stardock is a great company. I read your last report (if you are the author). I admire the history, and I admire the way Stardock has treated me as a customer, as well as the great products you make. I will not be taking your advice to not buy your stuff (can you imagine having to look at XP all the time?), and I will definitely tell my friends (whiney and non-whiney alike) to buy your products. You guys are running a great competition; I'm sure that this will be remembered for a long time to come. My thanks for that.
Reply #83 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:20 AM
Our web traffic is 25% is Vista.
If I really wanted to be harsh, I'd have taken a lot more off since packages that don't support Vista are basically useless on Vista and will be similarly useless on Windows 7 which comes out in about a year.
Another way to look at it is that all icon packages start out at a 0 and gain points for various things including Vista support.
Reply #84 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:26 AM
I believe in principles too. That is why I always come down very harshly when someone implies or asserts that their opinion on some abstract discussion like this should be more important because they have purchased a product or service. It implies to me that that person thinks their purchase of a product includes eternal servitude of employees of the company that produced the product.
One of the most consistent things you'll see me do is respond very negatively any time someone argues that they must be listened to simply because they're a customer. It's an issue of principle for me.
I've actually forcibly refunded people and banned them from our sites for carrying the "the customer is always right so quit disagreeing with me" to the Nth degree.
Just as I am willing to participate and argue my case for why I decided to do something based on the abstract merits of my position, I expect others to do the same.
No time in this discussion, for instance, have I said "I've been involved in designing icons for over a decade so my opinion is better than yours so be quiet". Similarly, I won't stand by and let someone imply "I am a customer so you will change your opinion because I bought your stuff" stand.
I understand the position some have. XP users think that taking a couple points off for not supporting Vista is too harsh. I disagree. There's really no middle ground on something like that. And it's largely irrelevant since I don't judge the winners. I am 1 of 3 preliminary judges. The users can use whatever criteria they want.
Draginol == Frogboy.
Reply #86 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 5:22 PM
Fight..... I think you meant to say Vista and not XP.
Reply #87 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 8:15 PM
Frogboy,
I don't really understand how voicing an opinion implies that it is more important than anyone elses, it is one voice that is all. However your response(to 1nsomn1ac) comes off as if you don't make icons/skins we don't care about what you have to say. Now if you were just a member of the community then I would probably just blow it off, but since that is hardly the case it makes it much harder to swallow. My point was simply that a customer should have a voice, not that you should have to jump everytime a customer says so. Also the points a customer makes should be considered, with an open mind, but that in no way means that you should be forced to agree with everything they have to say. A detailed(and tactful) explanation of why you think the way you do on a particular issue(as opposed to just saying this it how it is so like it or leave it) goes a long way towards preventing any dissatisfaction from escalating.
And, honestly telling a dissatisfied customer to "quit their whining" doesn't seem like a very successful strategy. Something more along the lines of "We are sorry, but this is our policy and this all that we can do at this time" seems more likely to result in less need to be banning customers.(however I am unfamiliar with the circumstances surrounding the ban you mentioned) There are definitely ways to talk to with customers that are less inflammatory, without having to submit to their every whim.
Also somebody please explain to me how not having the Vista icons makes the package "unusable"? Can you not apply the package? Granted I am not using Vista so I don't know but my guess is that once you apply the package 90%+ of the icons are still being used, thus 90%+ of the package is in fact usable. Or am I just thinking about the meaning of the word "unusable" too much, and what you simply mean is unappealing. If I am misunderstanding something please tell me.
And finally, once again I don't think anybody has a problem with deducting "a couple of points", however 20% is more like saying if you aren't going to do the Vista icons then don't bother submitting. 20% is a huge amount that is the point I am trying to make. If a disclaimer like, "Note:Not including Vista icons will result in a significant mark down in the judging proceedings, and while running the Vista OS is not a requirement for this contest we strongly recommend having access to Vista in order to design and test your submissions." was included it would have made things a lot more reasonable. Yes it is only the preliminary judging that narrows it down to 10 submissions, but when there are 84 submissions that is a pretty important step. Also if it was a panel of 10 judges then yes the impact of one judge would not be important, but with only 3 judges an unbalanced vote by just one skews the results pretty heavily.
Some specific questions that would help eliminate some of this back and forth:
If you were the only judge(I am making this qualification since we are only talking about your judging system),
Do you feel a 20% mark down would still gives entrants a fighting chance in this contest with 84 very high level entries?
(the way I see it the top contenders would all have to have scores less than 80% in order for a submission without a couple Vista icons to even have a remote chance)
If not, what is the specific reason you feel not including Vista icons should result in disqualification?
Do you feel that any level of incompleteness in the icon package should warrant a flat 20% reduction in score or does this 20% reduction only apply to submissions without Vista icons?
If the amount being penalized is not proportionate, why?
(I am hoping for something with more depth/detail than it's the latest version of the OS, as it is still only being used by 1/4 of your customers)
Looking back do you feel posting a disclaimer or your judging guidlines at the beginning of the contest would have been clearer and fairer to all of the competitors?
Reply #88 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 8:26 PM
2 points out of 10 is 20%.
If 25% of the users on on Vista then a 20% deduction seems to be fair.
Reply #89 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 8:47 PM
Yes as there will be finalists that are XP only I suspect. Quality in other ways clearly matters more in the big picture.
Reply #90 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 8:57 PM
If the icon package was in fact completely unusable for those 25% of the users I would agree that 20% would be fair. My argument is that the packages are not unusable, 90% of the package is still used in Vista and only 10% of the package is missing for 25% of the users, thus a 2.5%(10% of 25%) seems more reasonable.
Reply #91 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 9:02 PM
Unusable is a strong word but in a way they are just that unusable as they clash with the Vista icons horribly. 
Reply #93 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 9:20 PM
For windowblinds, if a skin didn't work correctly on Vista I can understand a big markdown, as "unusable" is definitely closer to the mark in that situation. Not to mention WB skins are much harder for the user to "fix", however with IP if I don't like 1 of the icons I can switch it out with another relatively easily(granted easier for some themes more than others) so it doesn't seem as criticle of an issue to me. I guess to me what seems like a minor issue might be bigger to somebody else though, I can grasp that. But 20% is like... ouch.
At the end of the day as long as it is not in effect disqualifying(or heavily handicapping) submissions solely on this factor then I guess I should just give it a rest.(yeah, I know... about time)
Reply #94 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 10:00 PM
ok.., i guess is time to quit this.., Jeff., me as a fan of your ol' great skins that your team have done so far i'll try to be pollite and easy with my point of view about yours and the other guys that are attacking the way this voting system is goin on....
The rules said this:
if the rules mention something about how they must look on Vista, then that means that in fact, this IP will get tested with Vista..., and asking a min of 55 icons "to be able to enter the contest" then that means that if i want to have a greater chance to win the contest i'll need to creat more than 55 or 70 or 90 icons, even if i dont realy use them in my own system..., now, with all this i dont mean that all the skinners must creat a massive ammount of icons and then might think that they will win only by that.., or that if i creat a master piece as an icon but only few of them (mmmh, let's say only for XP), i'll have the contest on my pocket, NO! if i as a skinner want to win this contest then i have to have both cards on my hand: ammount and quality.
..and that is all, u may locke this thread now 
Reply #95 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:01 PM
TYCUS... So your argument is because it clearly states "Submissions must contain a minimum of 55 icons" "Icons must be 256x256 to allow for scaling on Windows XP and Vista", all icon packages that meet and go well beyond that criteria should still get a 20% mark down for some requirements that are NOT stated in the rules?
Please clarify.
Reply #96 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:13 PM
Everyone should just wait for the results for the finals. All anyone knows right now is 1 persons opinion.
Reply #97 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:18 PM
damn.,, why isn't the "Lock this thread" button not working 
?
aww., Jeff, not exactly., example:
Some themes dont support Office or other common programs files = that is a fail = less points
Some themes dont support Vista live (or life whatever they call them) folders = that is a fail = less points
Some themes where only created for XP with the excuse that the skinner have XP and not Vista so how in the name of humanity he could test some icons that he can't even see over a OS that he/she doesn't have = easy.., ask some help at the forum = that is a fail so less points as well....
..and 20% of 10 is 2., on less that i'm a complete idiot! (and i'm sure that at this point you think i'm., so just keep it for you self ok )
Reply #98 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:27 PM
paris hilton has amount & quality. she's sux
Reply #99 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:43 PM
lol 1nsomn1ac, however I'm not so sure bout the quality
TYCUS,
Okay I was gonna keep quiet, honest...
One last time...
I am all for a proportionate point reduction for incompleteness, what I am not for is a disproportionate reduction for incompleteness.
Things that I would consider fair:
Flat reduction amount for anybody that submitted an incomplete entry (20% regardless of what you were missing, as long as it applies to everything and anything missing)
Reduction based proportionately on the number included vs. the max number.
Reduction based on the size of the user base.(25% if you missed a Vista icon, 75%off if you missed an XP icon)(While I consider this fair in theory, I think it would be a terrible idea)
Reply #100 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 11:48 PM
aww, but my friend, even that Paris Hilton is the worst example to use., she have some good points for her self:
- She can buy anything = she is damn rich (well., her parents, but it's almost the same)
- She is blond and with a.., well, for some, good body
- She can make a party and stay for a week in this hotel
.., we can't even enter nor go where this hotel is 
.., we can't even enter nor go where this hotel is 
Now., no one and i mean NO ONE have stated that ANY of the IP sucks, so please if your IP is in there dont loose any hope., you can still have the chance to win as well.
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Reply #81 Tuesday, December 9, 2008 12:05 AM
Frogboy,
Well at least your honest, that's gotta count for something.
Also, I think part of the reason people seem to be repeating their comments is that you seem to be repeatedly skipping over the important parts in theirs.
For example, people aren't arguing that deducting for not supporting vista is wrong, people are arguing that the amount of the deduction is not balanced. I am not sure if you are saying your 20% mark down is a reflection of the market share of Vista(using your numbers), because a non XP markdown would be really unbalanced using the same logic. If not, then I'm still unclear as to why the mark down is 20%.(for ease of calculation let's say vista icons represented 10% of a package, so take 10% of 25%(your estimate) and you end up with 2.5%)
Another point that got skipped is that nobody but Microsoft estimates a 25% share for Vista, do a quick search on OS usage statistics you will get closer to 15%. It is generally increasing at about 1% per month though so it may hit 25% by the time Windows 7 comes out, if it doesn't flatten out once Microsoft starts heavily advertising 7.
As far as the "whiner"(I really hate how this word get's thrown around anytime their is a disagreement...) comment goes, I tend to not post unless I see something I have a strong opinion about, if that qualifies as whining then I will take your comment about not buying your stuff to heart, as principle is far more important to me than anything else.(I stopped buying anything Sony a long time ago due to the way they treat their customers)