Does Stardock "need" WinCustomize?

Business vs. Community

Saturday, October 1, 2005 by Frogboy | Discussion: Community

There are some people who think that the moment someone starts a business that they instantly become greedy, money grubbing corporate robots.  But the reality is, most companies are privately held and those companies do things based on what motivated the stockholders.  In a private company wealth may only be a secondary motivator.

I can say as the principle shareholder in Stardock that accumulating wealth has never been my motivator. I want to do cool stuff. And I consider it my "talent" to be able to generally take things I enjoy doing and be able to do them as part of my "job".  Some things are done strictly because we think they're neat to do even though there's no remote business justification for it (JoeUser.com for instance).  We recently started doing PowerUser.tv too. There's no money to be made in podcasting (unless you're a mega player). But it's fun.

WinCustomize falls into a middle category.  Stardock makes software such as WindowBlinds, IconPackager, DesktopX, and so forth.  People who buy that software or are thinking of buying that software will want to see what can be done with it.  So in that sense, having some sort of gallery of content is necessary.  Statistically, most people hear about the software somewhere else or see a screenshot, download the trial version, and THEN start downloading skins after they've purchased it. It's not the other way around -- as a percent, few people discover our software through the skins first.

WinCustomize is a lot more than a skin gallery though.  It's a whole web community.  It's the largest - by far - site dedicated to downloading content to enhance your Windows desktop experience.  With over 22 million monthly visitors, it's one of the largest sites on the net period.  And it's safe to say that of the 22 million visitors, only a tiny tiny % actually have purchased (or will purchase) a Stardock product.

The growth of WinCustomize has been steady.  In December 2004, the site was getting around 14 million visitors per month. In September 2005, it got just about 22 million.  That's a very significant increase for such a short period of time.  Yet subscriptions to the site have declined.  That is, people who pay $20 to support the continued existence of the site and receive a number of (I think) pretty cool services. 

Some people have argued that WinCustomize has no business even trying to get people to buy subscriptions. Since Stardock "owns" it then Stardock should pay for everything because it's a "marketing" expense.  Running a site that gets 22+ million visitors per month is not like running some home page.  It takes rooms of servers and hundreds of megabits PER SECOND.  It also requires an IT staff, database developers and web developers.  You're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in expenses.

As a marketing expense, WinCustomize's value is pretty limited.  After all, DesktopX has been on WinCustomize since its founding and yet the wider world seems completely unaware of its existence.  You hear a lot about Konfabulator.  But little about DesktopX.  Why is that?  There's lots of reasons. But one of the root reasons is a lack of marketing.  A lack of ability to get the word out on DesktopX to get users and developers to try it out.  More developers doing things with it would mean more and better content which in turn would encourage more users to use it.  But in the end, Konfabulator ended up as the program people think of for adding mini-applets to their desktop.  And those who have heard of DesktopX are often unaware that it does a lot more such as build entire desktops and allow for desktop objects.  So how valuable is WC for marketing? Not much.  To be generous, I'd say $50k.  And that's just one example.

But WinCustomize currently costs over $300k per year to exist.  And in a year, it'll likely cost closer to $400k.  Advertising and subscriptions bring the cost down by around $100k. That leaves $200k left.  It WC worth $200k in marketing? Not on your life.  If Stardock had $200k in extra marketing dollars to spend each year, think of all the advertisements, high end PR firms, and community outreach programs it could have invested in?  

The point being, while WinCustomize has some value as a marketing resource, its value is pretty limited. The simple fact is that WinCustomize exists because of what I mentioned at the start -- Stardock, as a private company, can do things simply because it thinks it would be cool.  It cares about the skinning community and it thinks having a site like this is neat and worthwhile -- to a point.  Individuals have hobbies. Private companies have hobbies too (that's a big difference between private companies and publicly held companies).  But just as with personal hobbies, at some point they get too expensive to keep going.

To try to change things, Stardock has brought in two new people right away to help create more incentives for people to subscribe to WinCustomize -- more content for subscribers.  But odds are, things are going to start getting tighter for those who simply visit the site month after month who haven't contributed anything (on WC, skinners, even if they've not subscribed or bought anything are given access so that they are treated as subscribers).

Some things that come to mind:

  • People with no accounts will only be able to download things that have been uploaded in the past 48 hours and only 5 megabytes of content.
  • People without account will likely see a lot more ads. See www.gamespot.com for a good model.
  • People with accounts will be able to download up to 50 megabytes. After that they must become an SD customer or a subscriber.
  • People who have purchased a SD product (Object Desktop, CursorXP, etc.) will have unlimited downloads but there will be some skins that will only be available to subscribers.
  • SD customers will see fewer ads but they will see some ads.

These are just a few ideas floating around -- ideas submitted by users incidentally -- that we're seriously considering.  Since WC isn't paid for by ads, the # of monthly visitors is not as much of a goal as one might think.  If we could cut our traffic in half, we could probably save around $50k per year in expenses.  Another $50k would likely result from increase SD product purchases and/or subscriptions.  That would be a net difference of $100k.

There are plenty of other good skin sites out there people can visit. Here are a few: http://www.skinbase.org, http://lotsofskins.com, http://skins.deviantart.com/, http://www.skinz.org, http://www.customize.org.

Stardock - the company - needs sites for people to be able to download skins and themes for its software.  But it doesn't have to be WinCustomize.com. Ultimately, if the wider userbase doesn't or can't support WinCustomize as it exists today, then WinCustomize will evolve to be a site that caters more to those who can support it.  The current model for it is unsustainable.

First Previous Page 1 of 7 Next Last
Corky_O
Reply #1 Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:58 AM

There is no denying the logic on this one, Brad.

I hope WinCustomize can find a way to pay for itself, or at least 90% of itself.

With Vista around the corner, and it's apparent inclusion of functions that well may increase users appetite for customization, it seems a must for this site to address the cost of operation.

Corky_O
Reply #2 Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:59 AM

that well may increase

Oops! should read "that may well increase"

WOM
Reply #3 Saturday, October 1, 2005 10:18 AM
It does make sense. I'll bet Brad would be happy if the site paid 50-75%. I don't think Vista will do much to help, just look at XP. The wife and I have been subscribers from the start and have bought and renewed the software. I'am not a skinner so I don't contribute that was, I've helped on the forum, but the wife skins. As this is the only site we partake in, we support this site 100% with time and money. Would be nice if a lot of other did the same instead of bitching all the time. Thats my dime.
Iben
Reply #4 Saturday, October 1, 2005 10:20 AM
~
I think that the whole internet could improve,
and become more profitable.
I believe there is a flaw in the current way
that the internet utilizes advertising.
I believe there is a better model.
I know how the internet should be changed.
This is my idea to keep.

Also I will say this, I think there is another flaw
in the internet.
When I first bought a computer and surfed the net for the first time,
I was blown away when I discovered how much was given away for free.

Many might disregard what I have just said.
How would I know more than the people who run the semi-successful internet?
Well we will possibly never know.
~
John Hamp
Reply #5 Saturday, October 1, 2005 10:29 AM
I hate to say this but I think the site will be better served by making it more limited to those who would free load. Why should WinCustomize's community care about the silent masses who just take take take?
FMP8
Reply #6 Saturday, October 1, 2005 11:33 AM
Why should WinCustomize's community care about the silent masses who just take take take?

Exactly!
Septimus
Reply #7 Saturday, October 1, 2005 11:56 AM
I would just lock the site down to subscribers and owners of SD apps. Harsh but simple. The downloading only a certain amount works until a user clears their cookies.
azdruid
Reply #8 Saturday, October 1, 2005 1:35 PM
I think an important part to remember when considering banner-powered advertising, or even AdWords, is that a good deal of people (myself included) employ AdBlock, Greasemonkey, and a custom HOSTS to hide advertisements. Although I am a subscriber to WinCustomize, I still would see a grand total of zero ads if I were not.
Black Xero
Reply #9 Saturday, October 1, 2005 2:21 PM
People with no accounts will only be able to download things that have been uploaded in the past 48 hours and only 5 megabytes of content.
People without account will likely see a lot more ads. See www.gamespot.com for a good model.
People with accounts will be able to download up to 50 megabytes. After that they must become an SD customer or a subscriber.



In addition, they would be able to see the high-rated stuff (like WBThemes from Mike, TSF, VF) but
1. People with no accounts should only be able to download the skins/themes with lower than 3 star-ratings.
2. People with accounts might be given access to skins not more than 5 star rating.
Black Xero
Reply #10 Saturday, October 1, 2005 2:23 PM
Just a question: Will forthcoming policy affect the ACCESS LEVELS?
Lotherius
Reply #11 Saturday, October 1, 2005 2:44 PM
I still see the google ads. That's because they're unobtrusive enough generally that I have actually removed google from my adblocking software/hosts, etc. That isn't to say of course, that I ever actually click on them, which is where revenue is generated. Of course I'm a paid customer (SD, not WC sub), so I wouldn't mind seeing the complete freeloaders get a little less.

The way I see WC is as a resource to allow purchasers of StarDock products to fully maximize the usage of their product - not as a wide-open community site, or even as advertising. I see it as a value-added benefit.
bakerstreet
Reply #12 Saturday, October 1, 2005 2:56 PM
To me, Stardock sites have always seemed splintered. I understand the concept of "brand", but you have Stardock, you have Total Gaming, you have Wincustomize, you have the other skin sites that mirror the WC database, you have desktopgadgets, etc.

Right now, the freebies on each site are bait only for each site's localized revenue. For WC, the freebies only bait people toward subscriptions and maybe Stardock apps. If the sites were pulled together in such a way that "pedestrian" traffic were a benefit to ALL sites that generate revenue, then maybe the benefit of the "community" aspect would pull its weight.

Why should, necessarily, the TotalGaming community be separate from the WC community? Would it really be so bad to just be honest and call it a Stardock community? After all, that's who is paying the bills.

As it stands, many/most visitors are probably unaware of the connection between the sites. Not the registered/subscribed visitors, but the "mall walker" traffic we never come in contact with that probably eats a large percentage of your hits.

You have a marvelous magnet to pull people in, it just, to me, seems like once they are here there isn't much done to direct them to anything but the free downloads. I don't think the key is getting them to pay for what they are accustomed to getting for free, it's taking all this free stuff and turning it into a overall "brand" commodity that graces products with big traffic.

That's just me, and honestly I'm not anyone people would go to for business advice. To me, though, all of Stardock's endeavors look very compartmentalized. I just think that the sites that pull in a lot of visitors but generate little revenue could be used to direct users towards sites with fewer visitors and more revenue potential if everything were pulled together.
Gregory2001
Reply #13 Saturday, October 1, 2005 2:59 PM
What you should do is change "Wincustomize" to "Stardock". That way, you subscribe and get it all or you don't subscribe and get nothing.
bakerstreet
Reply #14 Saturday, October 1, 2005 3:06 PM
"1. People with no accounts should only be able to download the skins/themes with lower than 3 star-ratings.
2. People with accounts might be given access to skins not more than 5 star rating."


People would then simply want lower ratings, since the number of downloads they get would plummet as their rating went higher. People like Skinstudio and the rest would be punished because they make good skins, wouldn't they? I mean, the point for skinner is seeing people use and enjoy their skins.
Damilee
Reply #15 Saturday, October 1, 2005 6:44 PM
Do you think it would be possible for those of us who love the site and have supported Stardock by buying the products, but who can't afford to subscribe at this time (although I would dearly love too) Could skinners, have a break, could we earn a subscription through our submissions. I know mine aren't the greatest, but I learn more everyday, thanks to the skinning community for sharing the knowledge. Thankfully it costs nothing to learn...Or how about a sliding scale for those of us who are low income? I know that sounds stupid, you guys aren't the welfare office. But, I've been around here at Wincustomize for awhile. The more I'm here the more I want to contribute. I love it here...I don't know. I'll get a subscription sooner or later, but can't afford it now.

Sorry I'm not expressing what I'm trying to say very well. I just love you guys!!!

Kiss 2
geyster
Reply #16 Saturday, October 1, 2005 7:01 PM
When I've thought about the concept of paying for skins, I've always been opposed to it. But maybe it should be considered in some form. I don't know, make them "dollar" skins or something. 50c skins

You could even run it like the gaming site, where they could pay a small ammount for a skin, or buy tokens to use. The paid subscribers would get them free, but others would be charged a nominal fee. Just a thought.

And of course the skinners could share some of the revenue
leelitch
Reply #17 Saturday, October 1, 2005 7:06 PM
It would be a shame for WinCustomize to go the way of the Dodo. If I had a talent for skinning I would contribute that way, but alas all I can do is subscribe and buy the software and the ocasional premium suite. This is my second year and until I found you guys didn't know such a thing as skinning existed outside of the skins for Winamp and Musicmatch. The talent displayed is wonderous, and I'm sure is the result of many, many hours of work.Keep up the good work and don't you dare go anywhere!
leelitch
Reply #18 Saturday, October 1, 2005 7:16 PM
It sometimes takes awhile for people to realize that if they don't support what they are using it may not always be there. It took me awhile to feel at home with Stardock & Co. Most everyone in the community see's it's importance or at least the gee whiz factor and are willing to work thru the inevitable glitches. Not everyone feels that way. My first couple of experiences were somewhat less than optimal to say the least. But with time comes maturity and stability, so it is with the skinning community. Even now I get some weird things going on on my desktop, but lots better than it used to be. Given that, is it any wonder that some folks take and take? They just might be getting bad experiences and keep looking for something better. Eventually they will go elsewhere or figure out that WB and the other software deserves support. This in large part is how I was. You will always have folks that will NEVER give back, others just need time to decide to part with their hard earned cash. (IMHO)
Phoon
Reply #19 Saturday, October 1, 2005 7:41 PM
I won't repeat what I already stated in the other thread, but instead offer a different perspective.
While I am able to create my own skins and would be able to find the Great works on another site, I'm afraid that if WC goes away I for one will no longer be motivated to purchase Object Desktop or other SD products that enable OS enhancements. It is something I enjoy and would miss it, but when the community goes, I will throw in the towel as well.
In the meantime, I will do everything within MY power to support WC and try to gain new recruits.
bakerstreet
Reply #20 Saturday, October 1, 2005 7:57 PM
"While I am able to create my own skins and would be able to find the Great works on another site, I'm afraid that if WC goes away I for one will no longer be motivated to purchase Object Desktop or other SD products that enable OS enhancements. It is something I enjoy and would miss it, but when the community goes, I will throw in the towel as well."


That ignores the fact that Stardock existed for years before there even was a Wincustomize. Why does the site you get your skins from and upload to have to be owned by Stardock to make the software valid?

That said, I doubt there will ever be a time that Stardock won't offer downloads for their products. The question, as I see it, is more of whether they should be hosting skins for other company's apps and focusing on "community" instead of their business interests.

IMHO if the community bleeds them dry and doesn't care if WC exists or not, it isn't much of a community. If the people doint the bleeding arent part of the community, then downloads should be closed to them.

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