Does Stardock "need" WinCustomize?
Business vs. Community
Saturday, October 1, 2005 by Frogboy | Discussion: Community
There are some people who think that the moment someone starts a business that they instantly become greedy, money grubbing corporate robots. But the reality is, most companies are privately held and those companies do things based on what motivated the stockholders. In a private company wealth may only be a secondary motivator.
I can say as the principle shareholder in Stardock that accumulating wealth has never been my motivator. I want to do cool stuff. And I consider it my "talent" to be able to generally take things I enjoy doing and be able to do them as part of my "job". Some things are done strictly because we think they're neat to do even though there's no remote business justification for it (JoeUser.com for instance). We recently started doing PowerUser.tv too. There's no money to be made in podcasting (unless you're a mega player). But it's fun.
WinCustomize falls into a middle category. Stardock makes software such as WindowBlinds, IconPackager, DesktopX, and so forth. People who buy that software or are thinking of buying that software will want to see what can be done with it. So in that sense, having some sort of gallery of content is necessary. Statistically, most people hear about the software somewhere else or see a screenshot, download the trial version, and THEN start downloading skins after they've purchased it. It's not the other way around -- as a percent, few people discover our software through the skins first.
WinCustomize is a lot more than a skin gallery though. It's a whole web community. It's the largest - by far - site dedicated to downloading content to enhance your Windows desktop experience. With over 22 million monthly visitors, it's one of the largest sites on the net period. And it's safe to say that of the 22 million visitors, only a tiny tiny % actually have purchased (or will purchase) a Stardock product.
The growth of WinCustomize has been steady. In December 2004, the site was getting around 14 million visitors per month. In September 2005, it got just about 22 million. That's a very significant increase for such a short period of time. Yet subscriptions to the site have declined. That is, people who pay $20 to support the continued existence of the site and receive a number of (I think) pretty cool services.
Some people have argued that WinCustomize has no business even trying to get people to buy subscriptions. Since Stardock "owns" it then Stardock should pay for everything because it's a "marketing" expense. Running a site that gets 22+ million visitors per month is not like running some home page. It takes rooms of servers and hundreds of megabits PER SECOND. It also requires an IT staff, database developers and web developers. You're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in expenses.
As a marketing expense, WinCustomize's value is pretty limited. After all, DesktopX has been on WinCustomize since its founding and yet the wider world seems completely unaware of its existence. You hear a lot about Konfabulator. But little about DesktopX. Why is that? There's lots of reasons. But one of the root reasons is a lack of marketing. A lack of ability to get the word out on DesktopX to get users and developers to try it out. More developers doing things with it would mean more and better content which in turn would encourage more users to use it. But in the end, Konfabulator ended up as the program people think of for adding mini-applets to their desktop. And those who have heard of DesktopX are often unaware that it does a lot more such as build entire desktops and allow for desktop objects. So how valuable is WC for marketing? Not much. To be generous, I'd say $50k. And that's just one example.
But WinCustomize currently costs over $300k per year to exist. And in a year, it'll likely cost closer to $400k. Advertising and subscriptions bring the cost down by around $100k. That leaves $200k left. It WC worth $200k in marketing? Not on your life. If Stardock had $200k in extra marketing dollars to spend each year, think of all the advertisements, high end PR firms, and community outreach programs it could have invested in?
The point being, while WinCustomize has some value as a marketing resource, its value is pretty limited. The simple fact is that WinCustomize exists because of what I mentioned at the start -- Stardock, as a private company, can do things simply because it thinks it would be cool. It cares about the skinning community and it thinks having a site like this is neat and worthwhile -- to a point. Individuals have hobbies. Private companies have hobbies too (that's a big difference between private companies and publicly held companies). But just as with personal hobbies, at some point they get too expensive to keep going.
To try to change things, Stardock has brought in two new people right away to help create more incentives for people to subscribe to WinCustomize -- more content for subscribers. But odds are, things are going to start getting tighter for those who simply visit the site month after month who haven't contributed anything (on WC, skinners, even if they've not subscribed or bought anything are given access so that they are treated as subscribers).
Some things that come to mind:
- People with no accounts will only be able to download things that have been uploaded in the past 48 hours and only 5 megabytes of content.
- People without account will likely see a lot more ads. See www.gamespot.com for a good model.
- People with accounts will be able to download up to 50 megabytes. After that they must become an SD customer or a subscriber.
- People who have purchased a SD product (Object Desktop, CursorXP, etc.) will have unlimited downloads but there will be some skins that will only be available to subscribers.
- SD customers will see fewer ads but they will see some ads.
These are just a few ideas floating around -- ideas submitted by users incidentally -- that we're seriously considering. Since WC isn't paid for by ads, the # of monthly visitors is not as much of a goal as one might think. If we could cut our traffic in half, we could probably save around $50k per year in expenses. Another $50k would likely result from increase SD product purchases and/or subscriptions. That would be a net difference of $100k.
There are plenty of other good skin sites out there people can visit. Here are a few: http://www.skinbase.org, http://lotsofskins.com, http://skins.deviantart.com/, http://www.skinz.org, http://www.customize.org.
Stardock - the company - needs sites for people to be able to download skins and themes for its software. But it doesn't have to be WinCustomize.com. Ultimately, if the wider userbase doesn't or can't support WinCustomize as it exists today, then WinCustomize will evolve to be a site that caters more to those who can support it. The current model for it is unsustainable.
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Reply #22 Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:26 PM
.. I can't justify paying for a skin when I already have no money and using it forever. Skins are like clothes, some people keep them forever but the vast majority doesn't. I support the skinners and love their work.. Sometimes I make some things myself as well and "share" them as well. But you won't see me ever pay for one because of my financial burdens. I mean heck, I don't even pay for the net. If I have $5 it goes to my son, and if left over it goes to upgrading my computer so I can at least keep it up to date.
Reply #23 Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:29 PM
| It is something I enjoy and would miss it, but when the community goes, I will throw in the towel as well. |
There's something to be said for that.
There's a little more to Wincustomize than skin availability and business expense issues. There's also a 'community' albeit mostly silent, not everyone is on the forums, IRC, etc.
I think that part of the reason Frogboy [and Stardock] persevere with Wincusto is to foster this 'community'....keep it 'healthy' and attractive, afterall the person 'paying the bill' is a skinner himself....
It's been suggested that each skinner be given the option to make his or her submissions 'selective' or 'exclusive'...to paying customers only.
Now that's a great idea...as apart from the odd ego-tripper who is only in it for download counts the more 'conscientious'[perhaps] skinner would probably opt to remain exclusive....it's even an ego thing in itself....."I'll make this one exclusive because I think it's one of my best".
Now, if it ends up that the non-payer can SEE this content, even admire the previews, etc, but cannot access it, being limited to what a skinner has deemed 'inferior', there's a fair to middling chance he will subscribe to unlock 'pandora's box'.
The way this would/could work is for a skinner to be able to alter any/all his current uploads to be restricted or not. An example of the repercussions...I for one would make ALL my stuff 'exclusive'...for exactly two reasons.
1. I do not care about dl numbers so if I got no more it wouldn't faze me at all.
and
2. If it inspired/coaxed just ONE non-customer to become a subscriber then it would have served its purpose.
I don't really see a 'down-side'....those who feel they 'need' DLs and the more the merrier...they have the option to leave their works as free access.
If there were a question of equity of 'success' between a free-access work of 1000 dls vs a restricted one of 50 dls....to keep happy those who fret about such things perhaps some table/ratio/scale indicating current 'non-subscriber vs subscriber traffic' so comparisons may make more sense.....but really such would not be a level playing field....all that'd be needed would be to just compare like with like as it's really a 'two-class' upload/gallery system.
Maybe a downside to this is that ALL uploaders may want to be 'exclusive' thus greatly limiting the freeloader's choices.....is that good?....if not, then maybe the option of 'exclusivity of content upload' be limited to a higher level user...eg, not 'citizen' but maybe 'Master Apprentice'.
The success of the attraction of 'Window Shopping' is in how well those windows are 'dressed'.
If the 'exclusive content' is both attractive and ONLY accessible by people actually becoming customers then the commercial model 'must' be a winner, surely....
Reply #24 Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:44 PM
I would put 95% of my work on exclusive and give a 5% taste of my work to the selective.
Ahhh, I can already read all the treads about how greedy we skinners are
Oh well, who cares...... you gotta give something to get something.
Reply #25 Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:57 PM
| "Ahhh, I can already read all the treads about how greedy we skinners are" |
At least it wouldn't be the same old "Stardock is a a greedy evil corporate yadda yadda yadda" for the millionth time...
Reply #26 Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:03 PM
| A 'selective' or 'exclusive' option......hmmmmmm..... I like the sound of that. I would put 95% of my work on exclusive and give a 5% taste of my work to the selective. Ahhh, I can already read all the treads about how greedy we skinners are Oh well, who cares...... you gotta give something to get something. |
Well that's it. Here's an idea... Please like myself for instance that saved for a few months for Stardock Central ($49.95) shouldn't get anything. Why should we? Just the few skins included and then let's all shell out an extra $5 for a skin. Show me some Premium Suites. Including Boot Skin, WindowBlinds Skin, ObjectDock skin, Nice Cursor Set, WinAMP skin and some other goodies and more of us could probably justify saving for it if they are in my situtation where they can't afford an extra few bucks really. I figure, if you just want to make a WB skin then it should be free. Want to charge? Then offer something more, something worthwhile. I've done free web design for MANY people who have asked. Perhaps, I should have charged all of them even though I know they could barely afford to keep their site online?.. I support the exclusive and selective option. However, their needs to be a review of those skins to be eligible to be worth paying for. If you get to the point to where it's such a burden to make a skin that you need to charge for a basic glow effect WB skin, then please, find something better to do with your time. I'm not trying to make waves, I love you all. But this is my opinion.
Reply #27 Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:11 PM
| There's also a 'community' albeit mostly silent, not everyone is on the forums, IRC, etc. |
Thank you Jafo for grasping the concept that I was trying to get across.
As I said on the other thread, WC is the backbone of the community. Without it, the community will suffer greatly and may or may not fade away. Without the community there really is a far lesser need and desire for SD products.
Yes, it is a fierce double edged sword that is cutting away at the profits and I really like the ideas being suggested.
Reply #28 Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:21 PM
| However, their needs to be a review of those skins to be eligible to be worth paying for. |
Citizen Laoran ...the idea, as posted in my comment is that you are not paying for a skin, but paying for access to many skins...'plural'. Subscriber access to ALL versus non-subscriber access to 'some'.
The determination of who/what becomes exclusive content could simply be determined by the artist himself, so no noses become 'out of joint'.
When a third party determines what is, or is not 'exclusive' there is a real danger of insult and/or discrimination. It's difficult enough already with accusations of mis-placed/unfair ratings used to filter works' access. This would be even more of an 'issue'...
Reply #29 Saturday, October 1, 2005 9:30 PM
| When a third party determines what is, or is not 'exclusive' there is a real danger of insult and/or discrimination. It's difficult enough already with accusations of mis-placed/unfair ratings used to filter works' access. This would be even more of an 'issue'... |
You know man, I can related to that and respect what your saying regarding that. However, a few skins I've looked through (if I had the money for them) I couldn't justify getting. I've suggested before and should suggest again. If I could buy say an "unlimited" account say maybe foer $29 or $39 a year and have unlimited access to all premium/non-premium skins and no ads.. I would be more flexible to do that then I would shell out a few bucks for something that I consider less than premium quality. I won't use any examples for that same reasoning of making someone mad. I mean half or less are actually worth (to me at least) the premium fee.
I understand the subscriber vs. non-subscriber concept. But like I'm saying, there needs to be a further upgrade to being a subscriber If at $15 or $20 more my expense. I've always favored the "unlimited" idea for maybe $10 or $15 more a year to everything premium and not and having any restriction. If plausable. Then I wouldn't need to worry if I see 5-6 premium skins I like and being ticked I still need to pay additional fees to get them.
Reply #30 Saturday, October 1, 2005 10:44 PM
Reply #31 Saturday, October 1, 2005 11:48 PM
I'm sorry, but that's what it is. I'm a former Object Desktop subscriber, and will be renewing as soon as I have the money. I also have bought some other products from SD (OD+ and TotalGaming when it was Drengin).
To me, WinCustomize is, as I said in a previous post, a value added benefit of being a customer. If I'd pirated SD products, I wouldn't get preferential treatment on this site (rightfully). Instead, I bought them, so I get access to this huge library of community produced products. That is a valuable sales tool - one that I think Brad is not giving enough credit.
However, a WinCustomize subscription on its own is not in the cards for me. Really, I see absolutely no benefit for me. Perhaps that's my problem, but ultimately when a lot of people agree, it becomes the site's problem. Stardock sells "products" and those provide direct benefits for purchasers. Wincustomize is not a "product", it is a service. The products on WC are skins, wallpapers, etc. If these were not made available to those buying Stardock products at no extra cost, then I honestly think Stardock sales would suffer. Having this cohesive community, in my viewpoint, is *vital* to ensuring continued success of Stardock products, the Konfabulator-vs-DesktopX points notwithstanding.
Brad's points about the cost of running the site are not invalid, but I think he is understimating the value of this resource to the company's other products. I doubt very seriously if there are very many people who purchase an Object Desktop subscription, and then never download skins.
To get more WC subscribers, Stardock needs to be very careful not to alienate customers of their other products. Making a large amount of content available only to subscribers would do that.
That said, perhaps subscribers could be given other benefits, such as (just tossing out ideas here)
Note that this refers to SUBSCRIBER benefits only - not just SD Customer benefits.
1) Priority access to new downloads. Maybe 2 to 7 days ahead of non-subscribers. Thus ODNT customers could still access new content, but on a delayed basis.
2) Access to skins OLDER than 3 years... Many older skins do not really shine or take advantage of newer features. However, enthusiasts like digging deep in the database. Limit access to the old stuff to subscribers only.
3) No Daily download limits - Max of 25 downloads per calendar day for non-subscribers. This would be prevent "site-leeching" by non-subscribers.
4) A Skinning WIKI for subscribers only. This would include the various tutorials for skinning, graphics editing, etc, that are necessary for the community.
Those are just some ideas... Maybe not engaging enough, but that is a challenge isn't it? People already paid for the product, they don't want to pay again just to access the content that goes with the product. There needs to be incentive to subscribe *other* than simply shutting down the site, or making a large portion of new content exclusive.
Reply #32 Saturday, October 1, 2005 11:54 PM
I think BakerStreet came up with a good idea - combining the skinning, gaming, and gadget sites in some way to support each other.
I am not sure about how the logistics of coding, linking design, subscription handling, etc. would work, but I see that as a good possibility to brainstorm on.
Jafo outlined it nicely as far as limiting access, and charging for skins.
Being in the forty something crowd, I can remember (not too long ago), that free samples before purchasing were almost non-existent. You either purchased the product, or went without.
Things have changed, so we (society) now see a lot of people expecting to receive things for free, and many people (like myself) who remember when free was not something you expected - but was considered a treat. This may be some of the disparity I am seeing exhibited in various threads.
More premium suites would be nice, and perhaps a target of one per month through the course of a year (done by say a different, talented skinner each month) might make sense - along with the many artists uploading their best stuff to be offered at a price.
It sounds like Brad (and Stardock crew) have had WinCustomize on the "block" for possible cutting in the past, and it only makes sense to face the reality of whether it makes economic sense to keep paying for something that takes from Stardock.
All of us have had to prioritize our expenses based on income, and this is no different. My saying that I do not want to pay for something from this site (to my mind) would not be any different than Brad & his company saying this is getting too expensive - something needs to be done.
Laoran for example, has a family that comes first, and seems willing to pay for premium content he deems worthy. That works too. If there were 12 premium suites offered each year through WinCustomize, at say $10 each, and someone purchased 2 or 3 of those each year - there is the better part of a $20 subscription. The restrictions on downloads would still affect this person, but he/she would be able to utilize premium suites via Stardock products installed, and would also be contributing to the community in a reasonable way.
For subscribers like myself, the option to download content (free or purchasable) throughout the year would be just fine, as well as having the choice to purchase premium content each month (I think I already have all of Pixtudio and Mormegil's premium goodies).
If things went sideways, I am sure that the premium stuff would still be available from Stardock, so the software would still be invaluable (IMO) - though it would really be a shame to see a great community like this one whither and die. Of all the sites I have seen, this one is exemplary in it's simple honesty and caring between the regulars - even when there is a difference of opinon (a family squable if you will).
Let's hope for the best.
Reply #33 Sunday, October 2, 2005 12:28 AM
| Wincustomize is not a "product", it is a service. |
Quite correct....but the thing is it's not, or SHOULD not be a 'free service'.
In the real world it's 'user pays'....and so should it be here.
Do we have the skinner pay for he hosting/distribution of their wares...or do we have the user/downloader 'pay' for the access to those wares?
Personally, I see the skinner as the 'provider of content'...[ask Frogboy about my first-ever run in with him on skinz.org...6 years ago]...and the user/downloader as the 'user' of content that [so often] does not pay at all for this accessibility.
So, the skinner genuinely value-adds to the site by providing content [unfair to a degree to have them pay to provide content] but the bandwidth user, the person who downloads content...they're the ones who need to carry their weight.
Paying for a premium shin won't cut it....individual purchases of relatively low value....$5 or so each time....probably are more a logistics drain than anything, whereas an 'access fee', aka subscription that gets you everything [except 'specials' perhaps] SHOULD be the way to do it.
This 'you can grab all you want for as long as you want' has to have some genuine 'barriers' in place via locked dl buttons or similar....unless a financially graded access membership is in place.
Casuals...5 meg of free trials...limited to a limited access time....in other words...no browsing for old/superior content...just 5 meg of what's recent.
Reg'd members.... higher limit...access to only that wich the skin owner deems 'remain public'
Subscribers.... whatever they want/wish...no limits...duration of membership.
Special content...purchased by ANYONE, whatever 'level' as per current 'premium' suites, etc.....nothing to do with these new 'tiers' of access.
Sounds viable to me....
Reply #34 Sunday, October 2, 2005 12:48 AM
| Jafo outlined it nicely as far as limiting access, and charging for skins. |
It's not about semantics, but I really must STRESS that I'm not talking at all about 'charging for skins'....but actually about charging for site access.
What you do there/here once you have that 'access' is up to you, but the 'cost' isn't the skins, it's their downloading/access.
Misdirection/interpretation of semantics will have people as always arguing "how can a site/third party charge for a skin that was given freely by a skinner?"....when the truth is that the site is charging for the skin's hosting/downloading....a VALUABLE service for every skinner, equally, no matter who, as they ALL benefit from the collective, universal popularity/traffic that a site of this scale attracts.
It's a common argument of the 'everything MUST be free' brigade, that have their collective heads firmly embedded in their collective butts, oblivious to the commercial/reputational advantages provided by a 'big site'.
Sure, Stardock benefits from Wincustomize's existence, but so do I. So does each and every one of my fellow skinners/content providers.
Like many of them, I bought a subscription....seems a paltry fee to pay to have a site to show off my junk....to one heck of a lot more people than some private homely personal site would be likely to attract.
Honestly, for a hobby 'expense', as we Aussies would say, "20 quid is bugger-all"....and depending on your devotion/pre-occupation....can be even a "poofteenth of bugger-all".
What's needed is coercion to convince the rest of the world of 'skin users' that it's a small price to pay to get 'the good oil'...
Reply #35 Sunday, October 2, 2005 1:06 AM
Reply #36 Sunday, October 2, 2005 2:03 AM
| I really must STRESS that I'm not talking at all about 'charging for skins'....but actually about charging for site access |
Sorry, Jafo - I worded that wrong.
I meant paying for the right to download skins.
My personal take is:
No downloading without paying the access fee - period. I would say this is a bit too strict for todays consumer though.
People can come up with money for things they really want if they try. If a person removes $20 worth of coffee, soda pop, candy, etc. from their annual intake, it would not be a noticable dent in their diet over the period of a year.
Reply #37 Sunday, October 2, 2005 2:08 AM
| People can come up with money for things they really want if they try. If a person removes $20 worth of coffee, soda pop, candy, etc. from their annual intake, it would not be a noticable dent in their diet over the period of a year. |
Might make them a bit more trim in the 'spare tyre' [tire] department, too....
A win, all-round...
Reply #38 Sunday, October 2, 2005 2:58 AM
| Paying for a premium shin won't cut it....individual purchases of relatively low value....$5 or so each time....probably are more a logistics drain than anything, whereas an 'access fee', aka subscription that gets you everything [except 'specials' perhaps] SHOULD be the way to do it. |
Well put. You see me complaining about no funds and such. I do have "little" money to spend but those $5 or so each time thing IS infact too much of a drain and I refuse to get caught up in that. It's easier to explain to my wife that I got a "premium" subscription if you will for about $24 or $34.95 a year that allows me UNLIMITED ACCESS to everything I want besides "specials" which I would define as COMPLETE suites, rather than just a WB Skin and a Boot skin I'll change in a day..
The scenerio of "Oh honey, I just spent another $5 on just a WB skin and since it's the 5th one I got this month we're $25 in the hole now." isn't plausable in our marriage.
To whoever would be in charge of setting the subscription rates and access levels...
Make an Unlimited Access subscription (optional of course for those whom share my view) for let's say $24.95 or $34.95 and I will gladly pay.
Only things "I consider" to be "premium" would again, be a suite with at the very least the following:
WindowBlinds Skin (COMPLETE), BootSkin, Cursor set, WinAMP, Wallpaper
Hopefully, this is a possiblility and my money is yours.
Reply #39 Sunday, October 2, 2005 3:27 AM
Reply #40 Sunday, October 2, 2005 3:41 AM
| Shut the site down for a couple of months and see what happens |
This is something I'd prefer not to see happen. But honestly, think about it. (Not to be ignorant) Napster was "shut down" for the sharing of music with no fee. This didn't stop the internet, it stopped one site. You could still and CAN still get free music through means of mIRC, and other un-named P2P clients. But I don't care since I only pay $1.25 per album anyways with my account on an un-named site. But to stay on topic, you can shut down a site but you can never shut down it's content. Basically, meaning if this site was gone their would always be another to go to with the same content.
But around here, we aren't talking about content, we're talking about the "community". Out of all of the communities I've moderated, this ranks for sure in my top 5. Hopefully, one day I can be as fortunate to moderate in some way around here.
Everyone here is awesome, helpful, creative in their own uniqueness and positive.
I believe the suggestion I had and been brought up but a few now.. Is perhaps an unlimited access account for about $24.95 - $34.95 (to include premium "skins") and to exclude COMPLETE Premium "Suites" as a top point on the totem pole.
Next could be your standard (now if effect) subscription to where you get let's say 4 or 5 premium "skins" a year and the rest of the premi's you need to pay for.
Then could be a free access account. To where if you get an account, you get to download up to say 10MB in skins per month and can of course purchase premium skins/suites. Perhaps even managed on a different server to where it's lower bandwidth speeds as well?...
This (I believe) would solve the issues the vast majority has.
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Reply #21 Saturday, October 1, 2005 8:10 PM
Why should a small group of people be the one holding the burden of supporting a site so that others can feed-off without the minimal intention of helping out.
Just like me there are thousand of other users that have contributed enough to gain an access and user level that allows us unlimited downloads and benefits, yet we contribute with the community and the site.
Last month a contest was organized not only to help those that are unable to pay for a subscription but also to help support the site.
Currently there is another contest running, this time helping those that can’t afford SD products and there is plan for yet another subscription contest.
My point is, every time I read a comment about "this should be free", "skinners should not charge for their work", "why should I pay for a subscription when other sites have free stuff" or "I already pay for a SD product, I shouldn't pay for anything else" really makes me want to stop doing all the things I do, but that will only be part of the problem. So I think the points mentioned should serve as some (if not most of a) solution to this problem.
People need to realize that in order to keep getting and enjoying other people's work, they need to start supporting the place that holds and host such work.