Does Stardock "need" WinCustomize?

Business vs. Community

Saturday, October 1, 2005 by Frogboy | Discussion: Community

There are some people who think that the moment someone starts a business that they instantly become greedy, money grubbing corporate robots.  But the reality is, most companies are privately held and those companies do things based on what motivated the stockholders.  In a private company wealth may only be a secondary motivator.

I can say as the principle shareholder in Stardock that accumulating wealth has never been my motivator. I want to do cool stuff. And I consider it my "talent" to be able to generally take things I enjoy doing and be able to do them as part of my "job".  Some things are done strictly because we think they're neat to do even though there's no remote business justification for it (JoeUser.com for instance).  We recently started doing PowerUser.tv too. There's no money to be made in podcasting (unless you're a mega player). But it's fun.

WinCustomize falls into a middle category.  Stardock makes software such as WindowBlinds, IconPackager, DesktopX, and so forth.  People who buy that software or are thinking of buying that software will want to see what can be done with it.  So in that sense, having some sort of gallery of content is necessary.  Statistically, most people hear about the software somewhere else or see a screenshot, download the trial version, and THEN start downloading skins after they've purchased it. It's not the other way around -- as a percent, few people discover our software through the skins first.

WinCustomize is a lot more than a skin gallery though.  It's a whole web community.  It's the largest - by far - site dedicated to downloading content to enhance your Windows desktop experience.  With over 22 million monthly visitors, it's one of the largest sites on the net period.  And it's safe to say that of the 22 million visitors, only a tiny tiny % actually have purchased (or will purchase) a Stardock product.

The growth of WinCustomize has been steady.  In December 2004, the site was getting around 14 million visitors per month. In September 2005, it got just about 22 million.  That's a very significant increase for such a short period of time.  Yet subscriptions to the site have declined.  That is, people who pay $20 to support the continued existence of the site and receive a number of (I think) pretty cool services. 

Some people have argued that WinCustomize has no business even trying to get people to buy subscriptions. Since Stardock "owns" it then Stardock should pay for everything because it's a "marketing" expense.  Running a site that gets 22+ million visitors per month is not like running some home page.  It takes rooms of servers and hundreds of megabits PER SECOND.  It also requires an IT staff, database developers and web developers.  You're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in expenses.

As a marketing expense, WinCustomize's value is pretty limited.  After all, DesktopX has been on WinCustomize since its founding and yet the wider world seems completely unaware of its existence.  You hear a lot about Konfabulator.  But little about DesktopX.  Why is that?  There's lots of reasons. But one of the root reasons is a lack of marketing.  A lack of ability to get the word out on DesktopX to get users and developers to try it out.  More developers doing things with it would mean more and better content which in turn would encourage more users to use it.  But in the end, Konfabulator ended up as the program people think of for adding mini-applets to their desktop.  And those who have heard of DesktopX are often unaware that it does a lot more such as build entire desktops and allow for desktop objects.  So how valuable is WC for marketing? Not much.  To be generous, I'd say $50k.  And that's just one example.

But WinCustomize currently costs over $300k per year to exist.  And in a year, it'll likely cost closer to $400k.  Advertising and subscriptions bring the cost down by around $100k. That leaves $200k left.  It WC worth $200k in marketing? Not on your life.  If Stardock had $200k in extra marketing dollars to spend each year, think of all the advertisements, high end PR firms, and community outreach programs it could have invested in?  

The point being, while WinCustomize has some value as a marketing resource, its value is pretty limited. The simple fact is that WinCustomize exists because of what I mentioned at the start -- Stardock, as a private company, can do things simply because it thinks it would be cool.  It cares about the skinning community and it thinks having a site like this is neat and worthwhile -- to a point.  Individuals have hobbies. Private companies have hobbies too (that's a big difference between private companies and publicly held companies).  But just as with personal hobbies, at some point they get too expensive to keep going.

To try to change things, Stardock has brought in two new people right away to help create more incentives for people to subscribe to WinCustomize -- more content for subscribers.  But odds are, things are going to start getting tighter for those who simply visit the site month after month who haven't contributed anything (on WC, skinners, even if they've not subscribed or bought anything are given access so that they are treated as subscribers).

Some things that come to mind:

  • People with no accounts will only be able to download things that have been uploaded in the past 48 hours and only 5 megabytes of content.
  • People without account will likely see a lot more ads. See www.gamespot.com for a good model.
  • People with accounts will be able to download up to 50 megabytes. After that they must become an SD customer or a subscriber.
  • People who have purchased a SD product (Object Desktop, CursorXP, etc.) will have unlimited downloads but there will be some skins that will only be available to subscribers.
  • SD customers will see fewer ads but they will see some ads.

These are just a few ideas floating around -- ideas submitted by users incidentally -- that we're seriously considering.  Since WC isn't paid for by ads, the # of monthly visitors is not as much of a goal as one might think.  If we could cut our traffic in half, we could probably save around $50k per year in expenses.  Another $50k would likely result from increase SD product purchases and/or subscriptions.  That would be a net difference of $100k.

There are plenty of other good skin sites out there people can visit. Here are a few: http://www.skinbase.org, http://lotsofskins.com, http://skins.deviantart.com/, http://www.skinz.org, http://www.customize.org.

Stardock - the company - needs sites for people to be able to download skins and themes for its software.  But it doesn't have to be WinCustomize.com. Ultimately, if the wider userbase doesn't or can't support WinCustomize as it exists today, then WinCustomize will evolve to be a site that caters more to those who can support it.  The current model for it is unsustainable.

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Vailene
Reply #61 Sunday, October 2, 2005 12:33 PM
You people are all bastards (not to insult) making me feel bad for not having a subscription. (talking to wife about it like my friend suggested getting something) "honey, I really need this." .. Reply.. "We'll see".. There you have it.. possibly. I hate you all and love you at the same time. Lol.
starkers
Reply #62 Sunday, October 2, 2005 1:01 PM
What's $20.00 for a hobby or passion?
Half of the freeloaders will smoke or drink more than $ 30.00 today alone.


Exactly, $20 per year is but a drop in the ocean compared to that....so how about we say to those tight arsed freeloaders that the honeymoon period is over, subscriptions are required to access the content on this site.
Corky_O
Reply #63 Sunday, October 2, 2005 1:21 PM

Also they should be warned about their limit and maybe see a graph when they click the download button.

A reminder and a graph....

Excellent idea!

Island Dog
Reply #64 Sunday, October 2, 2005 1:36 PM

What's $20.00 for a hobby or passion?

It's nothing.  I get real tired of people complaining about $20.  I bet most of them put out $50 for a brand new game that they can play for less than 20 hours and never use again.  I went to Starbucks with my wife and the bill was about $20.

esg-designs
Reply #65 Sunday, October 2, 2005 1:43 PM
WinAmp, for instance, doesn't host Media Player skins on its site for instance.



Whaaaaa...???
Apocalypse_67
Reply #66 Sunday, October 2, 2005 1:51 PM
Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I need more incentive and access in a WC Subscription. Maybe seperate, but I've already paid enough into SD..


If you already pay anything to SD then you should not be worried about download limitations here at WC.

People keep complaining about how old the available premium skin/suites are in the SD Store but then again every time a new premium skin/theme is added to the store they still complain about artists charging for their work. So tell me how can SD please everyone?

If you can't afford something, then you must live without it. If your household income does not allows you to spend more than what you have, then there is no sense on telling/asking your wife what you "need" to have or what you want to aquire. But if you feel that you "MUST" have it, then you have to sacrifice the unnecessary things in your daily routine (that extra pack of cigarettes, that round of beers at the pub, etc) I guarantee you that you can gather $20.00 in a couple of days without putting a dent on the rest of your year expenses.

People need to start looking at WinCustomize as an 'All You Can Eat Buffet'
You pay $20.00 and you can eat all you want for a year. A YEAR. Most buffets charge that much for just a day.

When someone purchases a DVD player, the manufacturer doesn't give you a year worth of rental at your local Blockbuster.
If customizing your PC is a hobby to you, then you need to support the site that provides your hobby gadgets or you can simply create your own premium and compleat themes yourself.
bakerstreet
Reply #67 Sunday, October 2, 2005 1:56 PM
"If that was the case then Stardock would be making money off artist's work, in our case off our client's intellectual property which i do not think would be acceptable."


No more unacceptable than an art gallery making money off artists' work. If you can find a venue in real life where artists can come in, hang their art and give it away to anyone that wants it without having to pay for the privilege, point it out. I would imagine corporate interests would pee themselves if they could get their trademark hung all over private galleries without having to pay.

Wincustomize is worse, because this isn't just wear-and-tear on the carpet from traffic, each time someone downloads you work it creates operating costs for the "gallery." It would be akin to artists getting free gallery space AND expecting the gallery to photocopy art for the public for free.

Given your client's IP is already used to promote the site via the featured skins, etc., I don't see much difference.
GraveDigger
Reply #68 Sunday, October 2, 2005 2:37 PM
As a long time subscriber to Object Desktop and purchaser of several programs like CursorXP and ObjectDock Plus (as well as several of the exclusive themes and icon sets) I'm concerned that we might be biting off our nose to spite our face. How many potential users of Stardock products come here after seeing that "really cool skin" on so & so's machine? Limiting their access to the skins would only frustrate our ability to grow beyond our little community. I think that the application programs so be limited, so as to encourage users to buy the full-blown application in order to take advantage of all of the features that the programs can provide. And once you've started using these apps, it's a pain in the butt to use a computer that's not running them.

The skinning community has gone through a LOT of changes during the past few years as new applications have come along and older ones have died off. Many of the longtime skinners like Dangeruss have dropped completely off the map and many of the old Mac Kaleidoscope developers vanished when Apple introduced their own "appearance" control panel in Mac OS 8.x - it's likely that Vista will have some new tweaks that may make parts of Object Desktop and DesktopX less revolutionary. That's the way these things seem to work. Good ideas are incorporated (read stolen) into the next generation of the operating system and bad ideas die our without further development...
Vailene
Reply #69 Sunday, October 2, 2005 4:36 PM
Know what? I'm through with this discussion. It's drove me simple. (As if I'm not already) I had to sell crack for at least 3 weeks to afford the WC Subscription but I now have it. Hope you all are happy. ::cough:: frogboy.. I need to now live in my car and leech the internet via a 900 foot ethernet cable. lol.

I will have to say I was wrong though. I could get used to this WC Browser. Shows skins in a different way and I can now search the way I want to without limitation. I concur Dr. Sulu. lol.
Frogboy
Reply #70 Sunday, October 2, 2005 4:45 PM

I just want to point one thing out to those who talk about $20 PER YEAR being a lot of money for a hobby.

World Of Warcraft costs $15 PER MONTH. It's a video game that has sold into the millions.  Players have to first purchase World of Warcraft which is $50 and there is no game outside the non-free world to play in. THAT is the real world.

At the end of the day, a tiny tiny % of WinCustomize's user base (Subscribers and to a lesser extent SD customers) are paying for a HUGE number of non-contributors.

That's why I think WC needs to evolve into a site that focuses much more on rewarding those who give back to it.  WC needs to be more of a community.  I don't favor shutting down WC and I don't see that as a scenario.  Instead, I see it where the skinners, the subscribers and the SD customers are given far more "stuff" or more to the point, NON skinners, non-subscribers and non-SD customers are given a lot LESS stuff than they get now.

Apocalypse_67
Reply #71 Sunday, October 2, 2005 6:24 PM
That's why I think WC needs to evolve into a site that focuses much more on rewarding those who give back to it. WC needs to be more of a community. I don't favor shutting down WC and I don't see that as a scenario. Instead, I see it where the skinners, the subscribers and the SD customers are given far more "stuff" or more to the point, NON skinners, non-subscribers and non-SD customers are given a lot LESS stuff than they get now.


And that about sums it all up.
BoXXi
Reply #72 Sunday, October 2, 2005 6:30 PM
As one of the biggest contributors to this site, and one of the most downloaded skinners, I would happily make all my stuff (present and future) exclusive if Jafo's model came to fruition. I'm sure many of the other popular artists here would do the same to ensure that Wincustomize stays online. I believe it's time to ditch the freeloaders completely. More importantly, the front page of this site should change somewhat. It should feature the SOFTWARE available for purchase, with examples of what can be achieved with it. I think this is an important point because, other companies that sell software always make the purchase of the software the focus of the site, with downloads of other stuff, like skins etc, a secondary feature. That way the customer is drawn into the community via PURCHASING the software. As Stardock is a seperate site, that doesn't happen here. Maybe it's time to make skins available ONLY as a link from the Stardock site, as a kind of community section? And, $20 isn't much to pay for a subscription or a program, I pay $64 a year for my daughter to play some stupid "ToonTown" game from Disney!!                                                                                                                                             
TasT
Reply #73 Sunday, October 2, 2005 10:26 PM
Even without a WinCustomize, there'd be places to download skins. Either other sites or Stardock would create specific, heavily moderated, libraries for its stuff. But there's a lot more to WC than just libraries for its stuff.


This is a point I was planning to make after I read this comment.

That ignores the fact that Stardock existed for years before there even was a Wincustomize. Why does the site you get your skins from and upload to have to be owned by Stardock to make the software valid?


Way back when I would not have purchased WindowBlinds is Stardock had not had thier Gallery. NO it wasn't Wincustomize but it did offer a stable place to download skins. And yes there was Skinz.org ( the real one) at the time and it was great but it's job was not to act as a skin archive for stardock's products. Stardock will have to have a database of skins no matter what and Brad I know you realize that. Wincustomize is nice but I wish sometimes it was still like it was back then, with all the conversation taking place on IRC or the newsgroup servers......

I also think that Stardocks sites should be brought together under Stardock.net and I should be able to purchase different levels of "Stardock subscriptions" For example I should be able to renew my OD sub. and add Joeuser, Wincustomize and Total gaming at a discount.

I really wish that I cold make one payment to stardock a year and have access to everything that I want.

Ah hell Brad,
I have lots of Ideas on this, If you want me to type them out and make sense of them drop me a email.

Basic is to make Stardock.net the hub for everything stardock.
Vailene
Reply #74 Monday, October 3, 2005 1:09 AM
As a further end note on my behalf...

In this thread you see my earlier posts of being close-minded about the WC subscription. Mainly, because I wanted to "figure" I was correct about my beliefs of what it entailed and would not submit to otherwise. I then realized, "hey, it's 1 pizza from Papa Johns, Pizza Hut or Dominos." (At least in my area) and decided to give it a try just for the sake of it and helping a community I want to see stick around.

With all of this being said.. If you can't wake up and see that it's worth the $19.95 via my errors and posts about it's features... Then you won't wake up at all, and I'd suggest your removal from the community.

I'm to the point now, I don't even care about the 2 premium suite downloads. I wish it was more, but seeing I already got "bang for my buck" I'm not going to moan about it anymore.

When you have a WC Subscription you have total integration with ObjectDesktop (If you have it). If not, you still have total integration with the Stardock programs you do own, via the WC Web Browser.

If that's not enough for the "consideration" at least of the subscription then I don't know what is?..

Figure this:

You pay $19.95 for 1 year. Then next time you renew.. At the same $19.95 you get 2 years. (I'm broke and can still afford about $10 a year) That's what? Less than $1 per month after you renew.

So basic point is....

Anyone can afford a measily $1.67 a month (roughly)

And if you can't, then you're doing something wrong.

Shell out the $19.95 or go to different sites with not as organized content, with the same subscription rates for less features. Or if a free site, no support at all for the skins.

We won't miss you. (At least speaking for my behalf)

I support the "cut out the leechers" idea.
laurentfr
Reply #75 Monday, October 3, 2005 2:14 AM
as a OB buyer, the incentive beside the coherence between the OD components was the integration with Wincustomize and not being forced to hunt the web for new skins especially suites.

Stardock should not care about freeloaders. If people are not ready for either subscribing to WC or buying OD components, they do not care about Stardock and will most likely favor any other "free" solutions (like konfabulator for the widgets).

Make WC part of the OD services, I think so. You will only lose "free customers" and "free customers" are useless at the end of the day.
starkers
Reply #76 Monday, October 3, 2005 2:27 AM
Okay, so you have this neighbour who you know goes out night clubbing and drinking each Friday and Saturday night. Fine, but on Mondays they come to you with the sob story: "Money's tight this week, can you spot me a bit of cash 'til next week, and oh, could I borrow some sugar, milk, tea, coffee, bread, meat......? Maybe? you help out the first time, but when you see the Friday and Saturday night ritual continuing, and there's no hope of ever being repaid, you stop being charitable. Firstly, you simply can't afford it; and secondly, their self-indulgence is highly annoying because they are living well beyond their means, and subsequently yours, while you responsibly forego the 'good life' to make ends meet.

Liken this scenario to the non-impoverished freeloaders who constantly bitch and refuse to subscribe, and you're even more disinclined to offer them anything at all. Heck, a WC subscription amounts to less than 50 cents a week, and it's the flat refusal to pay that's so annoying to those of us who forego a luxury or two to support this great site. I'm far from being well off, and I'm willing to bet that the average subscriber is in the same boat, so why should we carry freeloaders who don't give a rat's arse about the site or the community minded members within. The site could go down and they'd just move on to freeload some place else, so yes, Brad, please take the necessary steps to reduce this burden on WC and preserve it for the subscribers who are genuine and sincere.
hachoo_wilzer
Reply #77 Monday, October 3, 2005 8:24 AM
I'm on the web at this moment courtesy of my housemate's ISP account. I had until last month a WC subscription, which I valued highly. WCs been my Homepage for years. I'm not a skinner par se, though I've dabbled with a few logons (retreaded walls) for my personal use. Presently, my housemate's 'net access is set to terminate early November, and as I lack the means to provide for access, I'd thought to wait until my SSD was settled to renew my WC subscription. Reading the above letter from Mr. Wardell, and the related comments, has led me to rethink my decision. I'd truly hate to get back online and find that WinCustomize no longer existed, so I'll find a way to renew and hope for the best.

Thoughts on DL restrictions: 3 DLs per day of 1 MB or less for all non subscribers.
Thoughts on advertising: Dual subscription level - $20.00 per year with ads similar to the Gmail approach, and $30.00 per year for no ads with added content or value.

I'll miss this place, but to quote Arnold - I'll be back.
Steve Grenier
Reply #78 Monday, October 3, 2005 10:12 AM
It's a shame it hear it but doesn't surprise me. It would be a sad day for the customizing community if wc were to close.
Vailene
Reply #79 Monday, October 3, 2005 1:16 PM
It's a shame it hear it but doesn't surprise me. It would be a sad day for the customizing community if wc were to close.


I would consider it a disaster for WC to close. But in aspect, restricting the site to only WC Subscribers and Stardock customers would probably be more logical to happen first.. If anything at all...


Posted via WinCustomize Browser/Stardock Central
Gollums
Reply #80 Monday, October 3, 2005 1:19 PM
hmm, as a ODNT subscriber, and a wincustomize subscriber I might be a little biased but here's a fairly long-time users take:

I bought ODNT because of the software: great apps, don't need to worry about updates, I always have the coolest desktop functionality (IMNSHO of course! ) on the block.

I originally purchased a WC subscription because of: 1. no ads, and 2. the promise of free exclusive themes. While I haven't really seen the later come through, (still have the original two installed after how many years now ?) but I know that by keeping my subscription up to date, I am contributing somehow. I do not claim to have any where near the talent that some of the artists here have, and since I can't contribute with talent, I contribute with money.

So does that mean that I don't still support the individual authors because I have access to WC? Not at all, I have also purchased many of the premium suites availible from Essorant and Mormegil. I doubt that I would have purchased their stuff without the exposure that WC has given them. Am I saying that they owe WC? Not in the slightest. I am suggesting though that there is more to the whole of WC than subscription vs. non-subscription access. I don't use bookmarks in my browsers because there are very few sites that I don't hit by using a search engine, or just type in the address. I come to wincustomize.com on a regular basis though to check up on what's happening, what new skins there are, see who's complaining about what (thanks to all who wrote in about the iPod Nano btw, now I will wait to get mine! )

None of this addresses the business model though, and I understand that. It is hard to justify dollars spent on something that seemingly doens't have an ROI. I just ask that Stardock takes the intangibles into consideration before they make a decision like closing a site like wincustomize.com. There might be more than meets the eye for all parties involved: end-users, developers and owners alike.

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