Does Stardock "need" WinCustomize?
Business vs. Community
Saturday, October 1, 2005 by Frogboy | Discussion: Community
There are some people who think that the moment someone starts a business that they instantly become greedy, money grubbing corporate robots. But the reality is, most companies are privately held and those companies do things based on what motivated the stockholders. In a private company wealth may only be a secondary motivator.
I can say as the principle shareholder in Stardock that accumulating wealth has never been my motivator. I want to do cool stuff. And I consider it my "talent" to be able to generally take things I enjoy doing and be able to do them as part of my "job". Some things are done strictly because we think they're neat to do even though there's no remote business justification for it (JoeUser.com for instance). We recently started doing PowerUser.tv too. There's no money to be made in podcasting (unless you're a mega player). But it's fun.
WinCustomize falls into a middle category. Stardock makes software such as WindowBlinds, IconPackager, DesktopX, and so forth. People who buy that software or are thinking of buying that software will want to see what can be done with it. So in that sense, having some sort of gallery of content is necessary. Statistically, most people hear about the software somewhere else or see a screenshot, download the trial version, and THEN start downloading skins after they've purchased it. It's not the other way around -- as a percent, few people discover our software through the skins first.
WinCustomize is a lot more than a skin gallery though. It's a whole web community. It's the largest - by far - site dedicated to downloading content to enhance your Windows desktop experience. With over 22 million monthly visitors, it's one of the largest sites on the net period. And it's safe to say that of the 22 million visitors, only a tiny tiny % actually have purchased (or will purchase) a Stardock product.
The growth of WinCustomize has been steady. In December 2004, the site was getting around 14 million visitors per month. In September 2005, it got just about 22 million. That's a very significant increase for such a short period of time. Yet subscriptions to the site have declined. That is, people who pay $20 to support the continued existence of the site and receive a number of (I think) pretty cool services.
Some people have argued that WinCustomize has no business even trying to get people to buy subscriptions. Since Stardock "owns" it then Stardock should pay for everything because it's a "marketing" expense. Running a site that gets 22+ million visitors per month is not like running some home page. It takes rooms of servers and hundreds of megabits PER SECOND. It also requires an IT staff, database developers and web developers. You're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in expenses.
As a marketing expense, WinCustomize's value is pretty limited. After all, DesktopX has been on WinCustomize since its founding and yet the wider world seems completely unaware of its existence. You hear a lot about Konfabulator. But little about DesktopX. Why is that? There's lots of reasons. But one of the root reasons is a lack of marketing. A lack of ability to get the word out on DesktopX to get users and developers to try it out. More developers doing things with it would mean more and better content which in turn would encourage more users to use it. But in the end, Konfabulator ended up as the program people think of for adding mini-applets to their desktop. And those who have heard of DesktopX are often unaware that it does a lot more such as build entire desktops and allow for desktop objects. So how valuable is WC for marketing? Not much. To be generous, I'd say $50k. And that's just one example.
But WinCustomize currently costs over $300k per year to exist. And in a year, it'll likely cost closer to $400k. Advertising and subscriptions bring the cost down by around $100k. That leaves $200k left. It WC worth $200k in marketing? Not on your life. If Stardock had $200k in extra marketing dollars to spend each year, think of all the advertisements, high end PR firms, and community outreach programs it could have invested in?
The point being, while WinCustomize has some value as a marketing resource, its value is pretty limited. The simple fact is that WinCustomize exists because of what I mentioned at the start -- Stardock, as a private company, can do things simply because it thinks it would be cool. It cares about the skinning community and it thinks having a site like this is neat and worthwhile -- to a point. Individuals have hobbies. Private companies have hobbies too (that's a big difference between private companies and publicly held companies). But just as with personal hobbies, at some point they get too expensive to keep going.
To try to change things, Stardock has brought in two new people right away to help create more incentives for people to subscribe to WinCustomize -- more content for subscribers. But odds are, things are going to start getting tighter for those who simply visit the site month after month who haven't contributed anything (on WC, skinners, even if they've not subscribed or bought anything are given access so that they are treated as subscribers).
Some things that come to mind:
- People with no accounts will only be able to download things that have been uploaded in the past 48 hours and only 5 megabytes of content.
- People without account will likely see a lot more ads. See www.gamespot.com for a good model.
- People with accounts will be able to download up to 50 megabytes. After that they must become an SD customer or a subscriber.
- People who have purchased a SD product (Object Desktop, CursorXP, etc.) will have unlimited downloads but there will be some skins that will only be available to subscribers.
- SD customers will see fewer ads but they will see some ads.
These are just a few ideas floating around -- ideas submitted by users incidentally -- that we're seriously considering. Since WC isn't paid for by ads, the # of monthly visitors is not as much of a goal as one might think. If we could cut our traffic in half, we could probably save around $50k per year in expenses. Another $50k would likely result from increase SD product purchases and/or subscriptions. That would be a net difference of $100k.
There are plenty of other good skin sites out there people can visit. Here are a few: http://www.skinbase.org, http://lotsofskins.com, http://skins.deviantart.com/, http://www.skinz.org, http://www.customize.org.
Stardock - the company - needs sites for people to be able to download skins and themes for its software. But it doesn't have to be WinCustomize.com. Ultimately, if the wider userbase doesn't or can't support WinCustomize as it exists today, then WinCustomize will evolve to be a site that caters more to those who can support it. The current model for it is unsustainable.
Reply #82 Monday, October 3, 2005 2:59 PM
Its nice being one of the more popular websites but if you can't sustain it financially is it benefiting you or hurting you. It sounds like you aren't reaping the benefits.
Perhaps you need better marketing as well. The message is not getting out to Joe User (no pun intended) who doesn't have any inkling about why they want WB or ODNT.
I'm not sure how to get that message across, it just seems to me that it isn't there. Plus the basic WB does enough for most people, maybe it needs to be time-limited.
Reply #83 Monday, October 3, 2005 3:47 PM
What makes WinCustomize so expensive is the traffic. 22 million vistors each month (do the math on how many people the site has to support in an hour) is just immense. You see people complaining about the site being slow or some glitch. The speed and glitches don't show up until you have thousands of people pounding on the servers at the same time. |
I still don't really understand the rationale for having the site set up so that all those users can partake without really contributing (in a way that is self-sustaining).
It seems to me that a subscription drive is just a stop-gap measure. Are you holding on to the idea of WC as a community, when the great majority of "visitors" are carried by the small minority of contributing members?
Doesn't the concept of community imply some flow of contribution and sustainability?
If people want mega download counts they can have their own sites.
If people object to having their content contribute to the site's revenue (and thus sustainability) then they can make their skins premium and charge the site a percentage, or make them free and host them elsewhere.
It just seems crazy to keep catering to those who are unwilling to contribute.
Reply #84 Monday, October 3, 2005 6:03 PM
In most places where you buy things you have to pay first and then you can download whatever it is your intresting in. Why should Wincustomize or Stardock and subrscibers/OD-buyers give away expensiv bandwith. I paid both Wincustomize subscription and OD and other misc programs and Premium Suites and I can't see why everybody don't have to buy what they want to use!! This shouldn't be any charity-site!
Reply #85 Monday, October 3, 2005 8:26 PM
I subscribe to W.C. and im a stardock customer. I subscribed during one of the past subscription drives. I felt the need to help this community, because it gave me so much and asked so little.
I wish that others felt the need to give back....
The community at W.C. here deserve so much for their time and efforts .. i wish i could do more ...
just my 2 cents
Reply #86 Monday, October 3, 2005 8:30 PM
I subscribe to W.C. and im a stardock customer. I subscribed during one of the past subscription drives. I felt the need to help this community, because it gave me so much and asked so little. I wish that others felt the need to give back.... |
That's my main reason for my change of mind. I looked at my profile and have been a member since May of this year. I've downloaded 83 MB. Whereas, I'm an ObjectDesktop customer , I figured 83MB worth of skins is worth the $19.95 to WC as well and it's artists.
Reply #87 Monday, October 3, 2005 11:15 PM
It may be that customization and skins are the primary drawcard for some, but for many it's much, much more because the community spirit tremendous and worth bottling, so let's show Brad how much we value WC and help keep the site viable and thus alive. I mightn't be able to contribute by way of skins at this time, for sale or otherwise, but I'm not opposed to paying a for a premium subscription if one becomes available, nor would I complain if standard subscription fees rose slightly to help cover the costs of provision.
We pay for postage stamps to have our mail delivered, and we pay for a seat to be transported by bus or train, etc, but in reality we are not purchasing those items, rather, we are covering the costs of providing those sevices. The same thing applies here, so for those who argue against subscribing, because skins are donated and not all available feature are used, think how far your mail goes without purchasing that stamp.....and does having to stand during a bus trip entitle you to a nil or reduced fare? No, of course not, and why should Wincustomize differ to any other provider who expends to offer you a service?
Reply #88 Tuesday, October 4, 2005 7:20 AM
What's $20.00 for a hobby or passion? Half of the freeloaders will smoke or drink more than $ 30.00 today alone. |
i immensely agree! (i'm sure that's not a proper sentence!) it's even more frustrating i think because in my own case, i know i spend this amount pretty regularly (i make good money) but can not purchase anything online because of where i'm from (madagascar). is there a way of multiplying the ways to pay a subscription? just a question. i can neither have a paypal account (madagascar is not an option last time i checked), nor pay by c.c. (don't have any here and when i was abroad, they didn't offer it yet as my banking and credit history was too young)... and money order, i'm just not quite sure if they work here. i'm just saying that there are places where payment methods are limited (basically, wire transfer is the one way i can think of) but people do have the money. if you told me i could wire the money, i'd buy simultateously a subscription & a renewal! and more stardock products & premium skins! (i've had my eyes on the natural desktop for ages!) and note that i'm saying this with no knowledge of how simple (or not) it would be for your end, so it is just a suggestion
Reply #89 Tuesday, October 4, 2005 10:18 AM
Miss iseekserendipity - if you get stuck, and Stardock can't help you out with your purchases, get in touch with me and we can find out a way for you to get your money to Stardock. I'm sure it's not that they don't want it, it just might take some creative thinking, and the help of the community. Let me know if I can help out. Maybe you could wire the money to Brad and then he can take care of it.
Anyway - it is nice to see a 'community' effort and concern for something that obviously is near and dear to the hearts of more than just the developers. I agree with most of the comments expressed in this thread. If I had talent - I would contribute artistically, but I would still buy a subscription. (Although - IMHO there are a few extremely talented artists here who SHOULD be given a free subscription just as a 'thank you - we're not worthy' type thing!)
Reply #90 Tuesday, October 4, 2005 3:20 PM
if you get stuck, and Stardock can't help you out with your purchases, get in touch with me and we can find out a way for you to get your money to Stardock. I'm sure it's not that they don't want it, it just might take some creative thinking, and the help of the community. |
thank you so much gollums! (i love lotr tooooo! ;op) i'm going to try a last resort person i just thought of. she's here in madagascar but is swiss and with a swiss bank account and therefore a credit card. the great thing is it's easy for her to receive my money (i can even pay her cash if need be)... so i'll try that, and if that doesn't work, i'll be sure to contact you. trust me, i'm doing this because i have been thinking of getting a subscription, but now that i've read about the current matters of my beloved wincustomize, i really want to make it happen asap!
Reply #91 Wednesday, October 5, 2005 9:04 AM
Reply #92 Wednesday, October 5, 2005 1:54 PM
Reply #93 Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:03 AM
What it really comes down to though is this question:
What is Wincustomize's primary purpose? Who is being served?
From what I read from most of the admin's posts, I get the feeling that they want to return WC to the skinners, drastically reduce the number of people hitting the site (freeloaders), and turn it into a pay-to-play site.
My question is - if this is the case, then why has WC been allowed to develop the way it has for the last few years?
The reason I ask is that it seems like all of a sudden the masses who hit this site (freeloaders though they might be) who made it so "successful" (22 million hits a month) are being told that they are no longer wanted, even if they have Object Desktop, CursorXP, etc.
I understand that the current masses are downloading tons and tons every day for free. I understand that WC has to recupe its losses somehow. I just fail to see why the method that's being proposed is a good one. Here's why...
Say 2000 people all sign up for WC subscriptions (the stated goal). At $20/each that only translates to $40,000 for the whole year! Last I heard you can't even pay a single web-dev or database admin a year's wages on that.
Wouldn't it be a much smarter idea to offer those 22 million unique visitors that have made Wincustomize the success that it is a year for $1? 22 million people X $1 is 22 million dollars - a LOT more than $40,000. Plus, it doesn't send the message that non-skinning folk are no longer wanted here and should clear out.
Thoughts on this?
Reply #94 Thursday, October 6, 2005 6:11 AM
Glad to hear that iseekserendipity. I hope you can find a way to help WC, and I'm sure Stardock does too! Just remember - don't get caught at work changing your whole desktop environment more than once per week (but the WB 5.0 was a good excuse this morning!) |
just to reassure you gollums, i'm extremely excited because it seems that my idea of doing it with my friend here is going to happen either tonight or tomorrow night (she confirmed)! so i'm extremely excited! and to boost wincustomize further (since i was planning to get it sooner or later, but when i noticed it was under "wincustomize" i figured it might help) i'm getting object dock plus as well. (and the natural desktop i've been drooling on for ages! )
my contribution to wincustomize (which should be factual and no longer just a plan soon):
- a wincustomize subscription
- a wincustomize renewal of subscription ( ) for 2 years
- object dock plus
and to stardock: natural desktop
i'm sooooooo excited it's fairly scary! i tend to spend loads of my money quickly on too many things (my excuse is contribution to the local economy) but am really glad i can do what i can to help this site!
and don't worry, i work at home, so i can mess around with my desktop hourly if i want! hehe
to answer the title of the article: wether stardock needs wincustomize or not, i need it!
Reply #95 Thursday, October 6, 2005 7:32 AM
1) If, like WC is hoping, they get 2000 people to sign up during the subscription drive and every last one of them re-subscribes next year for $20 for 2 years, that drops the incoming revenue from $40K/year to $20K/year during a time when bandwidth and other expenses are going up. This does not sound like a sustainable economic model to me.
2) If the yearly cost for each user's subscription was a measly $1, more users would pay it because its easier to come up with $1 than $20 for something that's been "free" for sometime, and no one would feel as though they were subsidizing 19 other losers when they coughed up their money.
Still hoping for comments on these ideas (and the ones in my post above).
Reply #96 Thursday, October 6, 2005 10:02 AM
Ash - Object Desktop customers wouldn't notice much change in the site.
There aren't 3 million Object Desktop customers. Most of WC's cost comes from handling massive traffic. But the number of subscribers hasn't scaled with the number of visitors.
Reply #97 Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:15 PM
That's my main reason for my change of mind. I looked at my profile and have been a member since May of this year. I've downloaded 83 MB. Whereas, I'm an ObjectDesktop customer , I figured 83MB worth of skins is worth the $19.95 to WC as well and it's artists. |
After seeing your post, I went and looked up my profile stats and was amazed at what I saw: Member since 1/02 (that's almost 4 years now...how the time really cruises when you're having fun!) and 796MB of downloaded materials! I got my first taste of Stardock when a friend of mine bought OD back in 2000 and she didn't use it much so uninstalled it and gave me her year's subscription. I was hooked even then. The need for more and more goodies was insatiable and I found WinCustomize to be my junkie's paradise. I've been here ever since and I proudly renew my ODNT and WC subscriptions when they're due along with buying all but 2 or 3 premium suites offered (here and those found at the skinner's personal websites). It took me about 2 months of downloading and perusing to realize in the beginning that if I didn't subscribe that I was going to be missing out on some really and truely amazing things to come to WC. I don't agree that we remove the non paying customers (who's going to pay if there's nothing they can access to see what they're missing), but I do agree that restriction of what they get and what/how much they can download (or restricting areas of the site only to paying subscribers) is a much more feasible and better solution to the problem. If there's only some content available for a non-subscriber to get and it's always the same thing, they'll get tired of missing out on all the other great stuff that they *could* have if they just part with a bit of honey.
Just my POV,
DD
Reply #98 Thursday, October 6, 2005 1:31 PM
(who's going to pay if there's nothing they can access to see what they're missing) |
The real question is (for many people): Who's going to pay when it's available for free?
If massive traffic at the site generated massive revenue, it would be a workable situation, but that's apparently not the case, so some balance point must be reached, where what's available to "browsers" is enough to entice those who are willing to pay, but not enough to keep the freeloaders "in business".
Reply #99 Thursday, October 6, 2005 2:10 PM
And the respect, honour, and friendly environment I have found here, is simply beyond the power of any scale in thie world ... !!!!
Reply #100 Thursday, October 6, 2005 5:14 PM
Why upload skins to a skinsite with so much limitations when you can upload it to other very popular skinsites without limits?
You forgot if wincustomize go offline a new site will open. This is the live.
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Reply #81 Monday, October 3, 2005 2:58 PM
Gollums: Very insightful pov.
To kind of sum up what has been discussed:
1) Subscribers and SD customers should be getting more value out of a skinning site than what they currently get. That's my opinion.
2) To get more value, more money needs to be spent to provide those services.
Therefore: Either WC needs to make more money or it needs to spend less.
The subscription drive allows WC, in the short run, to spend more money to try to provide more value to subscribers in the hopes that this will increase the natural subscription rate to a level that allows WC to be sustainable.
If that fails, the alternative is to decrease WC's cost by cutting many of the services and features available to non-contributors.
What makes WinCustomize so expensive is the traffic. 22 million vistors each month (do the math on how many people the site has to support in an hour) is just immense. You see people complaining about the site being slow or some glitch. The speed and glitches don't show up until you have thousands of people pounding on the servers at the same time.
While there is an element of ego being able to say "Aha! Look, we get 22 million visitors per month.." it's just that -- ego. WC would probably be just as well off with 10 million monthly vistors.